Discussion:
Arabic and Egyptian words for "stallion"
(too old to reply)
s***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-03-22 16:28:52 UTC
Permalink
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".

ARABIC

I'm looking for an Arabic word meaning "stallion". I can find several
words for "horse": حصان _HiSaan_, خيل _xayl_, _faras_. But when I
search online Arabic dictionaries for "stallion" I generally get these
two translations:

فحل الخيل _faHl al-xayl_ = "male of the horse"
حصان غير مخصي _HiSaan Gayr maxSii_ = "horse except gelding"

These look like descriptions of a stallion, rather than words people
would use in everyday speech. Is there any word in Arabic which on its
own means "stallion"?

Suppose one Arab wanted to say to another, "Guess what I bought today?
A stallion!" The listener doesn't realise that the speaker is talking
about horses until he uses this word. Thus the word needs to convey
that the thing bought is both a horse and a male. What would be
natural usage?

Two Semitic roots for "horse" are _suus-_ and _?br-_ (Hebrew _suus_
and _'abbiir_, both occurring in Judges 5:22). Am I right that these
roots have not survived into Arabic?

EGYPTIAN

I'm interested in finding a word in New Kingdom Egyptian meaning
"stallion", as distinct from merely "horse". I gather that Egypt
didn't know horses until the Second Intermediate Period, when they
were introduced with names loaned from Semitic.

I've found two words. The first seems to be a loan from Semitic _sus_
or _susim_. But what forms are attested in Egyptian texts? Online
Egyptian glossaries I've found generally list <ssmt>, which they
vocalise _sesmet_. This sounds feminine: does it mean a female horse
specifically?

Is the words ever attested in Egyptian as <ssm> without a feminine
ending? Googling, I found only one claim of this (as masc dual <ssm-
wy>), which was just somebody posting in a forum:
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000883.html

I found an academic paper reading: "the ancient Egyptian word for
horse, susim, indicates that the animal arrived from Semitic-speaking
parts". Source: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1alpern.html
(footnote 52).

To my mind the text above implies that the word has been attested in
Egyptian as <swsym> or the like. Does any such attestation occur, or
the quotation above a distortion?

Does the word ever occur with an indication of the vowel in the first
syllable, eg. as <sws>?

The other word I've seen generally seems to be written <ibr> in
English. I haven't been able to find it in hieroglyphs. Is this <jbr>,
ie. reed-leaf foot mouth?

Does either word, or any other, mean "stallion" or "male horse"
specifically?
Elijahovah
2009-03-23 09:50:33 UTC
Permalink
try Dalul
or try imaan
Yusuf B Gursey
2009-03-24 20:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
ARABIC
I'm looking for an Arabic word meaning "stallion". I can find several
words for "horse": ÍÕÇä _HiSaan_, Îíá _xayl_, _faras_. But when I
search online Arabic dictionaries for "stallion" I generally get these
ÝÍá ÇáÎíá _faHl al-xayl_ = "male of the horse"
ÍÕÇä ÛíÑ ãÎÕí _HiSaan Gayr maxSii_ = "horse except gelding"
These look like descriptions of a stallion, rather than words people
would use in everyday speech. Is there any word in Arabic which on its
own means "stallion"?
the classical arabic words are as you say faHl, you have to go
individual colloquials for
"everyday speech"
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Suppose one Arab wanted to say to another, "Guess what I bought today?
A stallion!" The listener doesn't realise that the speaker is talking
about horses until he uses this word. Thus the word needs to convey
that the thing bought is both a horse and a male. What would be
natural usage?
Two Semitic roots for "horse" are _suus-_ and _?br-_ (Hebrew _suus_
and _'abbiir_, both occurring in Judges 5:22). Am I right that these
roots have not survived into Arabic?
EGYPTIAN
I'm interested in finding a word in New Kingdom Egyptian meaning
"stallion", as distinct from merely "horse". I gather that Egypt
didn't know horses until the Second Intermediate Period, when they
were introduced with names loaned from Semitic.
I've found two words. The first seems to be a loan from Semitic _sus_
or _susim_. But what forms are attested in Egyptian texts? Online
Egyptian glossaries I've found generally list <ssmt>, which they
vocalise _sesmet_. This sounds feminine: does it mean a female horse
specifically?
Is the words ever attested in Egyptian as <ssm> without a feminine
ending? Googling, I found only one claim of this (as masc dual <ssm-
wy>), which was just somebody posting in a forum:http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000883.html
I found an academic paper reading: "the ancient Egyptian word for
horse, susim, indicates that the animal arrived from Semitic-speaking
parts". Source:http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1alpern.html
(footnote 52).
To my mind the text above implies that the word has been attested in
Egyptian as <swsym> or the like. Does any such attestation occur, or
the quotation above a distortion?
Does the word ever occur with an indication of the vowel in the first
syllable, eg. as <sws>?
The other word I've seen generally seems to be written <ibr> in
English. I haven't been able to find it in hieroglyphs. Is this <jbr>,
ie. reed-leaf foot mouth?
Does either word, or any other, mean "stallion" or "male horse"
specifically?
Yusuf B Gursey
2009-03-25 00:13:37 UTC
Permalink
............................................................................bbb
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
ARABIC
I'm looking for an Arabic word meaning "stallion". I can find several
words for "horse": ÍÕÇä _HiSaan_, Îíá _xayl_, _faras_. But when I
search online Arabic dictionaries for "stallion" I generally get these
ÝÍá ÇáÎíá _faHl al-xayl_ = "male of the horse"
ÍÕÇä ÛíÑ ãÎÕí _HiSaan Gayr maxSii_ = "horse except gelding"
These look like descriptions of a stallion, rather than words people
would use in everyday speech. Is there any word in Arabic which on its
own means "stallion"?
the classical arabic words are as you say faHl, you have to go
individual colloquials for
"everyday speech"
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Suppose one Arab wanted to say to another, "Guess what I bought today?
A stallion!" The listener doesn't realise that the speaker is talking
about horses until he uses this word. Thus the word needs to convey
that the thing bought is both a horse and a male. What would be
natural usage?
Two Semitic roots for "horse" are _suus-_ and _?br-_ (Hebrew _suus_
and _'abbiir_, both occurring in Judges 5:22). Am I right that these
roots have not survived into Arabic?
the root sws may be said to survive in sa:'is "stableman",perhaps in
older arabic as a loanowrd
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
EGYPTIAN
I'm interested in finding a word in New Kingdom Egyptian meaning
"stallion", as distinct from merely "horse". I gather that Egypt
didn't know horses until the Second Intermediate Period, when they
were introduced with names loaned from Semitic.
I've found two words. The first seems to be a loan from Semitic _sus_
or _susim_. But what forms are attested in Egyptian texts? Online
Egyptian glossaries I've found generally list <ssmt>, which they
vocalise _sesmet_. This sounds feminine: does it mean a female horse
specifically?
Is the words ever attested in Egyptian as <ssm> without a feminine
ending? Googling, I found only one claim of this (as masc dual <ssm-
wy>), which was just somebody posting in a forum:http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000883.html
I found an academic paper reading: "the ancient Egyptian word for
horse, susim, indicates that the animal arrived from Semitic-speaking
parts". Source:http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1alpern.html
(footnote 52).
To my mind the text above implies that the word has been attested in
Egyptian as <swsym> or the like. Does any such attestation occur, or
the quotation above a distortion?
Does the word ever occur with an indication of the vowel in the first
syllable, eg. as <sws>?
The other word I've seen generally seems to be written <ibr> in
English. I haven't been able to find it in hieroglyphs. Is this <jbr>,
ie. reed-leaf foot mouth?
Does either word, or any other, mean "stallion" or "male horse"
specifically?
s***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-03-25 09:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
the classical arabic words are as you say faHl, you have to go
individual colloquials for
"everyday speech"
Thanks very much for all the useful replies so far. The specific
colloquial I want is Upper Egyptian, particularly the part of the Nile
Valley where the river flows to the west and then turns north again,
from Dendera to Hiw to Balabish to Girga. That is, western Qena
Governorate and southern Sohag Governorate.
Yusuf B Gursey
2009-03-25 18:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
the classical arabic words are as you say faHl, you have to go
individual colloquials for
"everyday speech"
Thanks very much for all the useful replies so far. The specific
colloquial I want is Upper Egyptian, particularly the part of the Nile
Valley where the river flows to the west and then turns north again,
from Dendera to Hiw to Balabish to Girga. That is, western Qena
Governorate and southern Sohag Governorate.
I have no info on that very specific dialect but my sources give
HuSa:n for high brow colloquial egyptian
s***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-03-26 07:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
The specific
colloquial I want is Upper Egyptian, particularly the part of the Nile
Valley where the river flows to the west and then turns north again,
from Dendera to Hiw to Balabish to Girga. That is, western Qena
Governorate and southern Sohag Governorate.
I have no info on that very specific dialect but my sources give
HuSa:n for high brow colloquial egyptian
Is that vowelled with damm rather than kasr on the first letter?
Presumably, in that context, damm would be realised as [o].

The dialect you mention is presumably Cairene. Can anybody give me the
colloquial usage of Upper Egyptian peasants?

Thanks very much.
Yusuf B Gursey
2009-03-26 17:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
The specific
colloquial I want is Upper Egyptian, particularly the part of the Nile
Valley where the river flows to the west and then turns north again,
from Dendera to Hiw to Balabish to Girga. That is, western Qena
Governorate and southern Sohag Governorate.
I have no info on that very specific dialect but my sources give
HuSa:n for high brow colloquial egyptian
Is that vowelled with damm rather than kasr on the first letter?
that's what the source says.
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Presumably, in that context, damm would be realised as [o].
I would tend to agree.
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
The dialect you mention is presumably Cairene. Can anybody give me the
colloquial usage of Upper Egyptian peasants?
Thanks very much.
Pascal Tasiaux
2009-05-05 18:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Luxor: HuSa:n
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
The specific
colloquial I want is Upper Egyptian, particularly the part of the Nile
Valley where the river flows to the west and then turns north again,
from Dendera to Hiw to Balabish to Girga. That is, western Qena
Governorate and southern Sohag Governorate.
I have no info on that very specific dialect but my sources give
HuSa:n for high brow colloquial egyptian
Is that vowelled with damm rather than kasr on the first letter?
Presumably, in that context, damm would be realised as [o].
The dialect you mention is presumably Cairene. Can anybody give me the
colloquial usage of Upper Egyptian peasants?
Thanks very much.
Yusuf B Gursey
2009-03-24 20:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm interested in Arabic and Ancient Egyptian words for "stallion".
ARABIC
I recomend Enc. of Islam II "faras"
Post by s***@yahoo.co.uk
I'm looking for an Arabic word meaning "stallion". I can find several
words for "horse": ÍÕÇä _HiSaan_, Îíá _xayl_, _faras_. But when I
search online Arabic dictionaries for "stallion" I generally get these
ÝÍá ÇáÎíá _faHl al-xayl_ = "male of the horse"
ÍÕÇä ÛíÑ ãÎÕí _HiSaan Gayr maxSii_ = "horse except gelding"
These look like descriptions of a stallion, rather than words people
would use in everyday speech. Is there any word in Arabic which on its
own means "stallion"?
Suppose one Arab wanted to say to another, "Guess what I bought today?
A stallion!" The listener doesn't realise that the speaker is talking
about horses until he uses this word. Thus the word needs to convey
that the thing bought is both a horse and a male. What would be
natural usage?
Two Semitic roots for "horse" are _suus-_ and _?br-_ (Hebrew _suus_
and _'abbiir_, both occurring in Judges 5:22). Am I right that these
roots have not survived into Arabic?
EGYPTIAN
I'm interested in finding a word in New Kingdom Egyptian meaning
"stallion", as distinct from merely "horse". I gather that Egypt
didn't know horses until the Second Intermediate Period, when they
were introduced with names loaned from Semitic.
I've found two words. The first seems to be a loan from Semitic _sus_
or _susim_. But what forms are attested in Egyptian texts? Online
Egyptian glossaries I've found generally list <ssmt>, which they
vocalise _sesmet_. This sounds feminine: does it mean a female horse
specifically?
Is the words ever attested in Egyptian as <ssm> without a feminine
ending? Googling, I found only one claim of this (as masc dual <ssm-
wy>), which was just somebody posting in a forum:http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000883.html
I found an academic paper reading: "the ancient Egyptian word for
horse, susim, indicates that the animal arrived from Semitic-speaking
parts". Source:http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1alpern.html
(footnote 52).
To my mind the text above implies that the word has been attested in
Egyptian as <swsym> or the like. Does any such attestation occur, or
the quotation above a distortion?
Does the word ever occur with an indication of the vowel in the first
syllable, eg. as <sws>?
The other word I've seen generally seems to be written <ibr> in
English. I haven't been able to find it in hieroglyphs. Is this <jbr>,
ie. reed-leaf foot mouth?
Does either word, or any other, mean "stallion" or "male horse"
specifically?
Aviroce
2009-03-27 03:12:45 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
s***@yahoo.co.uk
2009-03-27 13:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aviroce
" when they were introduced with names loaned from Semitic. "
You are using Semitic in the sense given in the early 1900s.
I use Semitic here as a purely linguistic term, wih no relevance to
people's biological origin. I used it on the premise that Semitic and
Egyptian are distinct branches of the Afroasiatic language family. I'm
not an Afroasiaticist, but my impression is that most Afroasiaticists
today consider Semitic and Egyptian separate branches.

The biological origins of Old Kingdom Egyptians are disputed. I don't
know the evidence well, but my impression from odd bits and pieces
I've read is that they were probably mixed. North Africa had much more
rainfall than it does today until about the 4th millenium BC, when the
climate dried up and the land on either side of the Nile became
desert. It seems internally likely that various North African groups
would have migrated to the Nile to find water, and that their
descendents live there to this day. There's a chapter on this in
Steven Mithen's "After the Ice", but it's been a while since I read it
so I can't give you the details off the top of my head.
Post by Aviroce
According to James Baker (Theft of a Nation) Egyptians migrated
originally from the Arabian Peninsula as did all "Semitic" tribes in
waves with the Arabs last.
I couldn't find any such book. Do you mean "Theft of a Nation" by
William Baker (Defenders Publications, 1982)?
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