Discussion:
A Question About Hieroglyphics
(too old to reply)
G***@gmail.com
2007-03-27 04:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi:

I have read that hieroglyphics were written when not on walls, up and
down and right to left, like Chinese. I have also read that when on a
wall they could go in either direction, depending on which way they
wanted them to be read and that in these cases, the words faced the
direction being read, so that words could, in effect, face either way.
What I would like to know, was there a preferred way, like the word
facing to the right or left. If it didn't matter which way the word
was facing, was there a way that was considered best?

Thank you.


Leslie Hung
Eugene Griessel
2007-03-27 06:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by G***@gmail.com
I have read that hieroglyphics were written when not on walls, up and
down and right to left, like Chinese. I have also read that when on a
Hieroglyphs can be written down (top to bottom) but not up (bottom to
top).
Post by G***@gmail.com
wall they could go in either direction, depending on which way they
wanted them to be read and that in these cases, the words faced the
direction being read, so that words could, in effect, face either way.
What I would like to know, was there a preferred way, like the word
facing to the right or left. If it didn't matter which way the word
was facing, was there a way that was considered best?
Interesting question and one I am not remotely qualified to answer.
From my limited experience the choice of direction seems fairly
random. However I am aware of a number of instances when the same
writing is mirror-imaged on the wall. A left facing set of writing
will have the same message next to it in right facing glyphs.

Eugene L Griessel

To study history means submitting to chaos and nevertheless retaining
faith in order and meaning. It is a very serious task, ... and possibly
a tragic one. - Hermann Hesse
G***@gmail.com
2007-03-29 20:04:47 UTC
Permalink
So if someone was writing the single word maat on a wall or papyrus,
it wouldn't matter if the thick part of the feather were facing right
or left?

:)

Thanks,

Leslie
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
I have read that hieroglyphics were written when not on walls, up and
down and right to left, like Chinese. I have also read that when on a
Hieroglyphs can be written down (top to bottom) but not up (bottom to
top).
Post by G***@gmail.com
wall they could go in either direction, depending on which way they
wanted them to be read and that in these cases, the words faced the
direction being read, so that words could, in effect, face either way.
What I would like to know, was there a preferred way, like the word
facing to the right or left. If it didn't matter which way the word
was facing, was there a way that was considered best?
Interesting question and one I am not remotely qualified to answer.
From my limited experience the choice of direction seems fairly
random. However I am aware of a number of instances when the same
writing is mirror-imaged on the wall. A left facing set of writing
will have the same message next to it in right facing glyphs.
Eugene L Griessel
To study history means submitting to chaos and nevertheless retaining
faith in order and meaning. It is a very serious task, ... and possibly
a tragic one. - Hermann Hesse
Eugene Griessel
2007-03-29 21:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by G***@gmail.com
So if someone was writing the single word maat on a wall or papyrus,
it wouldn't matter if the thick part of the feather were facing right
or left?
No - unless it was part of a sentence, of course, when it would have
to face the correct way (I think!).

Eugene L Griessel

Some people are likable in spite of their unswerving integrity.
KLM
2007-04-10 04:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
So if someone was writing the single word maat on a wall or papyrus,
it wouldn't matter if the thick part of the feather were facing right
or left?
No - unless it was part of a sentence, of course, when it would have
to face the correct way (I think!).
Eugene L Griessel
Some people are likable in spite of their unswerving integrity.
That is interesting to me. In context (sentencial) position matters.
Alone direction does not rttema ? Inter-tinges. LLew? Otn sure
ehrew ot og from here? I-yay ay-may -eya inthey isthey over-yay.

/////
Eugene Griessel
2007-04-10 04:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by KLM
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
So if someone was writing the single word maat on a wall or papyrus,
it wouldn't matter if the thick part of the feather were facing right
or left?
No - unless it was part of a sentence, of course, when it would have
to face the correct way (I think!).
Eugene L Griessel
Some people are likable in spite of their unswerving integrity.
That is interesting to me. In context (sentencial) position matters.
Alone direction does not rttema ? Inter-tinges. LLew? Otn sure
ehrew ot og from here? I-yay ay-may -eya inthey isthey over-yay.
In hieroglyphs one can write a word forwards or backwards. One starts
reading depending on which way the individual letters face. If all
the heads are pointing to the right, then the word starts there. If
to the left then the word starts there. Simple. The question was if
a single letter was to be written would you write is "left-handedly"
or "right-handedly". Other than some conventions - for instance if it
was spoken by a figure drawn nearby - one would basically be free to
write it either way. However is a single letter was a part of a
sentence then it would have to face the way the sentence was going.

There, I hope I have made that simple enough for someone with a
mentality low enough to resort to pig latin.

Eugene L Griessel

Lysdexia: a peech imspediment we live to learn with...
KLM
2007-04-11 05:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by KLM
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
So if someone was writing the single word maat on a wall or papyrus,
it wouldn't matter if the thick part of the feather were facing right
or left?
No - unless it was part of a sentence, of course, when it would have
to face the correct way (I think!).
Eugene L Griessel
Some people are likable in spite of their unswerving integrity.
That is interesting to me. In context (sentencial) position matters.
Alone direction does not rttema ? Inter-tinges. LLew? Otn sure
ehrew ot og from here? I-yay ay-may -eya inthey isthey over-yay.
In hieroglyphs one can write a word forwards or backwards. One starts
reading depending on which way the individual letters face. If all
the heads are pointing to the right, then the word starts there. If
to the left then the word starts there. Simple. The question was if
a single letter was to be written would you write is "left-handedly"
or "right-handedly". Other than some conventions - for instance if it
was spoken by a figure drawn nearby - one would basically be free to
write it either way. However is a single letter was a part of a
sentence then it would have to face the way the sentence was going.
There, I hope I have made that simple enough for someone with a
mentality low enough to resort to pig latin.
Eugene L Griessel
Lysdexia: a peech imspediment we live to learn with...
OK, I was only joking ...................... asshole. Take a pill
and get over yourself before you hurt someone!
KLM
2007-04-11 05:49:25 UTC
Permalink
in addition, symmetries matter in written iconography.
They relfect neural processing. Linguistic forms evolve based on this
principle. So there ........... IMUS!
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by KLM
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
So if someone was writing the single word maat on a wall or papyrus,
it wouldn't matter if the thick part of the feather were facing right
or left?
No - unless it was part of a sentence, of course, when it would have
to face the correct way (I think!).
Eugene L Griessel
Some people are likable in spite of their unswerving integrity.
That is interesting to me. In context (sentencial) position matters.
Alone direction does not rttema ? Inter-tinges. LLew? Otn sure
ehrew ot og from here? I-yay ay-may -eya inthey isthey over-yay.
In hieroglyphs one can write a word forwards or backwards. One starts
reading depending on which way the individual letters face. If all
the heads are pointing to the right, then the word starts there. If
to the left then the word starts there. Simple. The question was if
a single letter was to be written would you write is "left-handedly"
or "right-handedly". Other than some conventions - for instance if it
was spoken by a figure drawn nearby - one would basically be free to
write it either way. However is a single letter was a part of a
sentence then it would have to face the way the sentence was going.
There, I hope I have made that simple enough for someone with a
mentality low enough to resort to pig latin.
Eugene L Griessel
Lysdexia: a peech imspediment we live to learn with...
Katherine Griffis
2007-04-03 13:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
I have read that hieroglyphics were written when not on walls, up and
down and right to left, like Chinese. I have also read that when on a
Hieroglyphs can be written down (top to bottom) but not up (bottom to
top).
This depends: there are "acrostic" examples of glyphs which can, in
effect, be read from bottom to top and even diagonally. Glyphs are
also able to be read in a circular fashion as well (Redford 1973;
Stewart 1971). I am aware of glyphs even being rendered upside down
in some afterlife texts (Piankoff 1964), but there are also examples
of alternation between horizontal and vertical lines, and between left-
oriented and right-oriented lines, acrostics, and even crossword
puzzles (Vernus 1982; Brunsch 1979; Zandee 1966).
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by G***@gmail.com
wall they could go in either direction, depending on which way they
wanted them to be read and that in these cases, the words faced the
direction being read, so that words could, in effect, face either way.
What I would like to know, was there a preferred way, like the word
facing to the right or left. If it didn't matter which way the word
was facing, was there a way that was considered best?
Interesting question and one I am not remotely qualified to answer.
From my limited experience the choice of direction seems fairly
random. However I am aware of a number of instances when the same
writing is mirror-imaged on the wall. A left facing set of writing
will have the same message next to it in right facing glyphs.
The general rule that most Egyptologists follow is that when the
animal and human elements of glyphs "face" a subject on a wall relief,
papyrus, etc. that is the speech being spoken by _that_ subject. So,
if the glyphs of a text "face" the king's image, then the king is
speaking. If they face a god, then the god is speaking, and so on.
There are exceptions to this general rule, as noted by Fischer (1977).

Where glyphs tend to "mirror" each other is often found on wall jambs
and lintels above doors - that is, where pairs of architecture exist,
or where the texts can be repeated on one-half of a lintel to pertain
to the right/left side of a room. In two cases of which I am aware,
the glyphs of two individuals buried in the same tomb face one another
in a tomb door lintel such that the names "join," indicating their
close relationship to one another (Baines 1985; Reeder 2000). On one
of these situations, see

http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/names.html

Reference:

Baines, J. 1985. Egyptian Twins. Orientalia 30: 461-482.

Brunsch, W. 1979. Die bilingue Stele des Moschion (Berlin Inv. Nr.
2135 - Cairo J. d'E. Nr. 63160). Mit einem Exkurs von G. Amendt.
Enchoria 9: 5-32.

Fischer, H. G. 1977. _Egyptian Studies II: The Orientation of
Hieroglyphs. Part I: Reversals_. New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Reeder, G. 2000. Same-sex desire, conjugal constructs, and the tomb of
Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep. World Archaeology 32/2: 193 - 208.

Stewart, H. M. 1971. A Crossword Hymn to Mut. JEA 57: 87-104.

Piankoff, A. 1964. _The Litany of Re. Egyptian Religious Texts and
Representations_. Bollingen Series XL: 4. New York: Pantheon/Random
House.

Redford, D. B. 1973. A New Dated Inscription from the Reign of
Horemheb. JSSEA 4/1 (July 1973): 6-23. (Inscription found on the outer
rim of a granite bowl).

Vernus, P. 1982. Espace et idéologie dans l'écriture égyptienne. In A.-
M. Christin, Ed., _Écritures: systèmes idéographiques et pratiques
expressives. Actes du colloque international de l'Université Paris
VII. 22, 23 et 24 avril 1980_: 101-114. Paris: Le Sycomore.

Zandee, J. 1966. _An Ancient Egyptian Crossword Puzzle_. Mededelingen
en Verhandelingen van het Vooraziatisch-Egyptisch Genootschap "Ex
Oriente Lux" / Mémoires de la Société d'Études Orientales "Ex Oriente
Lux" 15. Leiden: Ex Oriente Lux.

HTH.

Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com
Eugene Griessel
2007-04-03 20:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katherine Griffis
Post by Eugene Griessel
Hieroglyphs can be written down (top to bottom) but not up (bottom to
top).
This depends: there are "acrostic" examples of glyphs which can, in
effect, be read from bottom to top and even diagonally. Glyphs are
also able to be read in a circular fashion as well (Redford 1973;
Stewart 1971). I am aware of glyphs even being rendered upside down
in some afterlife texts (Piankoff 1964), but there are also examples
of alternation between horizontal and vertical lines, and between left-
oriented and right-oriented lines, acrostics, and even crossword
puzzles (Vernus 1982; Brunsch 1979; Zandee 1966).
Thanks for that Katherine - but are these special cases or is it
common? Maybe Gardiner never got around to those!
Post by Katherine Griffis
The general rule that most Egyptologists follow is that when the
animal and human elements of glyphs "face" a subject on a wall relief,
papyrus, etc. that is the speech being spoken by _that_ subject. So,
if the glyphs of a text "face" the king's image, then the king is
speaking. If they face a god, then the god is speaking, and so on.
There are exceptions to this general rule, as noted by Fischer (1977).
Makes sense.
Post by Katherine Griffis
Where glyphs tend to "mirror" each other is often found on wall jambs
and lintels above doors - that is, where pairs of architecture exist,
or where the texts can be repeated on one-half of a lintel to pertain
to the right/left side of a room. In two cases of which I am aware,
the glyphs of two individuals buried in the same tomb face one another
in a tomb door lintel such that the names "join," indicating their
close relationship to one another (Baines 1985; Reeder 2000). On one
of these situations, see
Yes most of those I'm familiar with are around doors - although I have
seen examples on plain walls.

Getting back to the original question - the current pronunciation of
ancient Egyptian - how sure are we that we are even close to how the
ancients pronounced it? Can you throw some light on this? I can
vaguely recall, and I may be horribly wrong here, Zahi Hawass at a
lecture saying something to the effect that the modern vowel sounds
used actually related to fairly modern Egyptian? Long time ago and I
may have heard/remembered wrong.



Eugene L Griessel

Exploitation and government are two inseparable expressions of politics.
Katherine Griffis
2007-04-09 08:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eugene Griessel
Post by Katherine Griffis
Post by Eugene Griessel
Hieroglyphs can be written down (top to bottom) but not up (bottom to
top).
This depends: there are "acrostic" examples of glyphs which can, in
effect, be read from bottom to top and even diagonally. Glyphs are
also able to be read in a circular fashion as well (Redford 1973;
Stewart 1971). I am aware of glyphs even being rendered upside down
in some afterlife texts (Piankoff 1964), but there are also examples
of alternation between horizontal and vertical lines, and between left-
oriented and right-oriented lines, acrostics, and even crossword
puzzles (Vernus 1982; Brunsch 1979; Zandee 1966).
Thanks for that Katherine - but are these special cases or is it
common? Maybe Gardiner never got around to those!
The point I was trying to make by noting these circumstances of other
than left-->right/right--> left/top-->bottom reading of glyphs is that
one can never be sure and generalise that "always" glyphs are read a
certain way. Sometimes the acrostic and crossword styles of writing
can even be read _both_ ways, which means that cryptography is not
merely a modern method of rendering "secret" writings. Jan Assmann
discussed some of these features of Egyptian glyphs in

Assmann, J. 1997. Zur Ästhetik de Gehemnis. Kryptographie als
Kalligraphie im alten Ägypten. In A. Assmann, J. Assmann, A. Hahn and
H.-J. Lüsebrink, Eds., _Schleier und Schwelle. Geheimnis und
Offentlichkeit_: 313-327. Archäologie der literarischen Kommunikation
V/I. Munich: Wilhelm Fink Verlag.

<snip>
Post by Eugene Griessel
Getting back to the original question - the current pronunciation of
ancient Egyptian - how sure are we that we are even close to how the
ancients pronounced it? Can you throw some light on this? I can
vaguely recall, and I may be horribly wrong here, Zahi Hawass at a
lecture saying something to the effect that the modern vowel sounds
used actually related to fairly modern Egyptian? Long time ago and I
may have heard/remembered wrong.
He may have stated that vowels were added in writing as feature from
Coptic were used to compare with ancient Egyptian. This goes back as
far as Champollion, who felt that Coptic was the key to Egyptian
language. To an extent, he was correct, but there's more involved in
ancient Egyptian than merely Coptic alone.

Loprieno (1995: 5) has noted that ancient Egyptian is more closely
related to Beja (a Cushitic dialect), Berber, and Semitic in terms of
how it likely sounded rather than Coptic alone. All of these languages
contain glottal stopped consonants which are semi-vocalic vowel
equivalents. But ancient Egyptian itself does not contain vowels, so
when one sees vowels in rendered Egyptian (eg. Egyptian /'imn/ = Amun/
English), these are linguistic accomodations, usually based upon
Coptic, but may not reflect how ancient Egyptian actually sounded for
the term /'imn/ over the millennia of Egyptian linguistic history.

Loprieno has done the most on trying to develop a theory of how
ancient Egyptian sounded during the paharonic period, but in all, it's
still theoretical (and likely will remain so, as we have no living
speakers of the language today). Egyptologists, when speaking amongst
themselves will slide "neutral" vowel sounds between the consonants so
they are univerally understood amongst other Egyptologists, such that
Tutankhamun's name comes out roughly as this:

Egyptian: /twt anx 'imn/ (written /'imn twt anx/, due to theophoric
transposition)

would be said by most Egyptologists as 'toot ahnk uh-min'

as w= long u
as ah = short a
as 'i = short i, but actually a glottal stop
as i in 'min' = merely a language convention, as most people tend to
unconsciously insert a short 'i' or 'e' when faced with two consonants
such as 'm' and 'n' together.

I have heard some people (including Egyptologists) insert as "long u"
sound in /'imn/ but there's actually nothing in Egyptian itself which
says this must be the case. Aayko Eyma, moderator of the
Egyptologists Electronic Forum, has pointed out the way we pronounce
the god's name today comes mainly from the Coptic, and wrote, in
dispelling the notion that the god's name and the end of prayers
('Amen') are in any way related:

"...the Egyptian god's name never sounded like Amen (that's again a
modernism!), but was written /imn/, which in the New Kingdom was
pronounced /3Ama:ne/ (as testified by the cuneiform texts that render
the name with vowels) and which after ca 1000 BC developed into /
3Amu:n(e)/ (hence the Coptic form 'Amoun' and the Greek form 'Amoun').
The Egyptians themselves connected the name with the verb /imn/, "to
conceal", so the god's name would mean "the Hidden One" (cp. Plutarch,
Isis and Osiris, ch. 9 = Manetho, Fr. 77)."

Source: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/AEloans.html#fn17

Reference:

Loprieno, A. 1995. _Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction_.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

HTH.

Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com
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