Middle Egyptian

Post by Charles Albrecht
I need to ask someone a few questions about the Egyptian language.
I need to ask how some words are pronounced no the oldest form of the
language? and in the
roman alphabet the words are... No glyphs please
fire,ice,time,you,me,'outer space',speed,temple

You are aware that we have no idea how the ancients pronounced the
words. That modern pronounciation of ancient Egyptian is inspired
guesswork based upon assumptions that may or may not be true?

Eugene L Griessel

Much as he is opposed to lawbreaking
He is not bigoted about it.

Charles Albrecht

2007-03-26 19:23:27 UTC

You are aware that we have no idea how the ancients pronounced the
words. That modern pronounciation of ancient Egyptian is inspired
guesswork based upon assumptions that may or may not be true?
Eugene L Griessel
Much as he is opposed to lawbreaking
He is not bigoted about it.

Actually no I wasn't that aware of it, As I had thought that had bin worked
out
by the phonetics of the Rosetta stone translation ( ware we have some known
pronunciations )

thanks , Maybe we can chat about it some time...
Charles

Eugene Griessel

2007-03-26 19:39:37 UTC

You are aware that we have no idea how the ancients pronounced the
words. That modern pronounciation of ancient Egyptian is inspired
guesswork based upon assumptions that may or may not be true?
Eugene L Griessel
Much as he is opposed to lawbreaking
He is not bigoted about it.

See if you can get hold of Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar" - hideously
expensive but maybe your library can get hold of a copy for you.

There is a rudimentary dictionary here that may help you:
http://hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/lookup.pl?ty=tr&ch=a&cs=1

Eugene L Griessel

What's the use of having power if you don't plan to abuse it?

Charles Albrecht

2007-03-26 22:29:28 UTC

You are aware that we have no idea how the ancients pronounced the
words. That modern pronounciation of ancient Egyptian is inspired
guesswork based upon assumptions that may or may not be true?
Eugene L Griessel
Much as he is opposed to lawbreaking
He is not bigoted about it.

See if you can get hold of Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar" - hideously
expensive but maybe your library can get hold of a copy for you.
http://hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/lookup.pl?ty=tr&ch=a&cs=1
Eugene L Griessel
What's the use of having power if you don't plan to abuse it?

Thank you ,
That was truly the right information at the right time...
I have bin doing a little research into the transmisition of language over
time and translation ( kind of a hobby of mine ) At the moment
I was testing the 900bce translation of 'Re' to 'Rha' in Greek
Thanks much
Charles

Eugene Griessel

2007-03-27 06:37:54 UTC

You are aware that we have no idea how the ancients pronounced the
words. That modern pronounciation of ancient Egyptian is inspired
guesswork based upon assumptions that may or may not be true?
Eugene L Griessel
Much as he is opposed to lawbreaking
He is not bigoted about it.

There is a fairly interesting essay to be found here:
http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm
which touches on some of the problems involved with the ancient
language.

Eugene L Griessel

The history of mankind is an immense sea of errors in which few obscure
truths may be here and there found. - C de Beccaria

Charles Albrecht

2007-03-29 15:53:50 UTC

You are aware that we have no idea how the ancients pronounced the
words. That modern pronounciation of ancient Egyptian is inspired
guesswork based upon assumptions that may or may not be true?
Eugene L Griessel
Much as he is opposed to lawbreaking
He is not bigoted about it.

http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm
which touches on some of the problems involved with the ancient
language.
Eugene L Griessel
The history of mankind is an immense sea of errors in which few obscure
truths may be here and there found. - C de Beccaria

Hi Again,
That is a good link although it has some really classic errors in it.
Why do they always blame Star Gate for the term 'Rha', It is not to blame.
When I was in Jr. High it was Rha not Re or Ri either ( Rha is called the
old
Language or the eastern tribal language ).

I think the best explanation is this, Before the creation of the old
kingdom
the Nile river was for a large part a collection point of many tribes from
the
lands going to dessert there were many languages spoken on its banks
with many religions as well. Probably built on the city state concept? This
is of course in great dispute and most likely will be for a long time...

Maybe we can chat about it some time?
Thanks much
Charles

Eugene Griessel

2007-03-30 05:49:55 UTC

Post by Charles Albrecht
I think the best explanation is this, Before the creation of the old
kingdom
the Nile river was for a large part a collection point of many tribes from
the
lands going to dessert there were many languages spoken on its banks
with many religions as well. Probably built on the city state concept? This
is of course in great dispute and most likely will be for a long time...

Most probably - but not really my field of interest and my knowledge
of pre-dynastic times is minimal.

Eugene L Griessel

So what if there's a population explosion?
It's fun helping to light the fuse!

Charlie

2007-03-30 17:19:28 UTC

Post by Eugene Griessel
http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm
which touches on some of the problems involved with the ancient
language.

Hi Again,
That is a good link although it has some really classic errors in it.

Could you elaborate on what the "really classic errors" are? I found the
essay interesting but I'm a complete novice when it comes to languages. I
do find it very hard to believe that anyone can know how words were
pronounced in ancient times.

Charlie

Eugene Griessel

2007-03-30 17:57:55 UTC

Post by Charles Albrecht
That is a good link although it has some really classic errors in it.

Yes Mr Albrecht's response was rather odd as the writer never makes
the claims he attributes to him and which are peripheral to the main
essay in any case. Perhaps a case of misunderstanding what the author
was trying to say?

Eugene L Griessel

A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Charles Albrecht

2007-03-31 23:38:00 UTC

Post by Charles Albrecht
That is a good link although it has some really classic errors in it.

Yes Mr Albrecht's response was rather odd as the writer never makes
the claims he attributes to him and which are peripheral to the main
essay in any case. Perhaps a case of misunderstanding what the author
was trying to say?
Eugene L Griessel
A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

That's O.K. I was asking questions

Charles Albrecht

2007-03-31 23:36:53 UTC

Post by Eugene Griessel
http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm
which touches on some of the problems involved with the ancient
language.

Hi Again,
That is a good link although it has some really classic errors in it.

Hi Charlie,
"really classic errors" really refers to someone who blame the ills of the
world on TV.

Actually You can know how words are pronounced in ancient times. It works
something like this ( We will work the word Rha ) We check out several
translations
and do a series of comparisons based on age ( Rha is a sacred and in various
times
some people would execute you for mispronouncing it ).
I.E.
1: 900bce Greek ( Rha ) = Rha
2: 100ad Greek ( Rha ) = Ri

3: 100bce Roman ( Rha ) = Ri ( No other known Roman translations )

4: 340ad Spanish ( Rha ) = Row ( also no other known translations )

5: 200bce Babylon ( Rha ) = Ri ( some in Iraq clam this pronunciation still
holds today )
6: 200bce Syria ( Rha ) = Ra ( This one is a real ? )

7: 4000bce to current India and Tibet ( Rha ) = Rha ( and clam the
pronunciation has never changed )

This is called the travel of language ( language both travels and ages as
well ) My hobby...
one more example one closer to home.

I.E. English
1: 1000ad England ( Hollow )
2: 1600ad England ( Holler )
3: 1875ad England ( Hello )
4: 1950ad England ( Hi )

This one is just age ( based on general acceptance )
We can chat about it sometime if you like.

Thanks its bin fun
Charles
BBS @ http://cpbbs.homeip.net:8080

Charlie

2007-04-02 18:30:22 UTC

Post by Charles Albrecht
Hi Charlie,
"really classic errors" really refers to someone who blame the ills of
the world on TV.

Okay.

Post by Charles Albrecht
Actually You can know how words are pronounced in ancient times. It works
something like this ( We will work the word Rha ) We check out several
translations
and do a series of comparisons based on age ( Rha is a sacred and in
various times
some people would execute you for mispronouncing it ).
I.E.
1: 900bce Greek ( Rha ) = Rha
2: 100ad Greek ( Rha ) = Ri
3: 100bce Roman ( Rha ) = Ri ( No other known Roman translations )
4: 340ad Spanish ( Rha ) = Row ( also no other known translations )
5: 200bce Babylon ( Rha ) = Ri ( some in Iraq clam this pronunciation
still holds today )
6: 200bce Syria ( Rha ) = Ra ( This one is a real ? )
7: 4000bce to current India and Tibet ( Rha ) = Rha ( and clam the
pronunciation has never changed )

My problem with understanding this argument is that it seems to me that you
are talking about spelling, not pronunciation.

Post by Charles Albrecht
This is called the travel of language ( language both travels and ages as
well ) My hobby...

This is exactly the point that makes it hard for me to grasp any meaningful
way of knowing how someone in the distant past pronounced anything. Even in
my lifetime there have been variations in the way some words are pronounced.
Prior to the ability to actually record someone talking the only way I can
think of to explain pronunciation is through a system designed specifically
for that purpose such as phonetic symbols. Even that relies on knowing how
the symbols were pronounced originally and in any case I don't believe the
idea of preserving the exact pronunciation of words goes back more than a
couple of hundred years. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Post by Charles Albrecht
one more example one closer to home.
I.E. English
1: 1000ad England ( Hollow )
2: 1600ad England ( Holler )
3: 1875ad England ( Hello )
4: 1950ad England ( Hi )

Again this seems like changes in spelling, not pronunciation. How does
anyone know that Hollow wasn't pronounced exactly like Hi is today or even
like Rha? <grin> Unlikely, sure, but I just haven't seen anything that
isn't based on a lot of supposition.
I'm not saying that there aren't clues to be found in modern pronunciations
but I think that we shouldn't claim to 'know' how ancient people pronounced
their words.

Charlie

Charles Albrecht

2007-04-03 00:05:48 UTC

Post by Charles Albrecht
Hi Charlie,
"really classic errors" really refers to someone who blame the ills of
the world on TV.

Okay.

My problem with understanding this argument is that it seems to me that
you are talking about spelling, not pronunciation.

Post by Charles Albrecht
This is called the travel of language ( language both travels and ages as
well ) My hobby...

This is exactly the point that makes it hard for me to grasp any
meaningful way of knowing how someone in the distant past pronounced
anything. Even in my lifetime there have been variations in the way some
words are pronounced. Prior to the ability to actually record someone
talking the only way I can think of to explain pronunciation is through a
system designed specifically for that purpose such as phonetic symbols.
Even that relies on knowing how the symbols were pronounced originally and
in any case I don't believe the idea of preserving the exact pronunciation
of words goes back more than a couple of hundred years. Correct me if I'm
wrong.

Post by Charles Albrecht
one more example one closer to home.
I.E. English
1: 1000ad England ( Hollow )
2: 1600ad England ( Holler )
3: 1875ad England ( Hello )
4: 1950ad England ( Hi )

Again this seems like changes in spelling, not pronunciation. How does
anyone know that Hollow wasn't pronounced exactly like Hi is today or even
like Rha? <grin> Unlikely, sure, but I just haven't seen anything that
isn't based on a lot of supposition.
I'm not saying that there aren't clues to be found in modern
pronunciations but I think that we shouldn't claim to 'know' how ancient
people pronounced their words.
Charlie

Hi, Charlie,
.Not as much as you think, Spelling is a way of reproducing pronunciation
( Phonetics ). In English of course phonetic spelling is a little bit more
rare
as language changes.

I really want to thank you guys ( Eugene ) The info I got was good.
But I must be going now there is so much more to find out.

Thanks .
Charles

KLM

2007-04-10 04:22:26 UTC

Post by Charles Albrecht
Hi,
I need to ask someone a few questions about the Egyptian language.
I need to ask how some words are pronounced no the oldest form of the
language? and in the
roman alphabet the words are... No glyphs please
fire,ice,time,you,me,'outer space',speed,temple
Thanks very much
Charles

There would have been phonetic differences (dialectic) within
the population using the language(s) at any point in time. There would
have been phonological drift in all dialects, somewhat tied
to historical events, migration, and such ... over time. Language
usage on a practical level is as varied as walking patterns. You
would have had a sizeable sample of phonetic variation to chose
from probably centering on regional location not to mention
social class (caste). In fact it is the variability in spoken phonology
which serves as a pressure for writing, and standard written forms
and standardised scales of measurement and even mathematics
in particular which tends to try and end all doubt about what is
being said or meant.

Still your wish is a good one and perhaps you can do some reasearch and
come with any examples of spoken early Egyptian,
and hire yourself out to Hollywood!

Good luck -

Charles Albrecht

2007-04-10 17:31:04 UTC