WI Egyptians made bread better

[Tim Howard]

Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

I seem to remember than the purpose of making bread in Egypt was so
they could accidently discover beer, or was it the other way around.

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/egypt_alcohol.html

[a***@pacific.net.au]

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

Hmm. Do you have any understanding of ancient and medieval grain
milling at all?

I would guess not.

Until quite modern times *THE* way of milling grain was by rubbing it
between two stones.

Premium flours (the specialty sort) today are still advertised as
"stone ground".

An understanding of why this was the case might stand in good stead.

As would an understanding of *why* the Egyptians ... and people right
through to early modern times ... indeed, right into the 20th century
in some places, even in the developed world ... used stone grindstones
to mill grain.

Hint: Ancient Egypt was largely a stone age society with limited
availability of metals.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: ***@pacific.net.au

[JTEM]

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average
was in the early 30s.

Accounts from classical times had it even older, at least
for the rural population.

Post by Tim Howard
One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian
diet. Due to their method of grinding grain to make the
bread, small bits of rock would get into the bread and
would get lodged on people's teeth, causing infections,
for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.

As others have pointed out, stone-ground flour for bread is
rather common. Heck, even where they had no wheat,
like in Central/South America, stone was used to ground
the corn... and still is.

What set Ancient Egypt apart was the sand, an additional
abrasive.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=egypt+bread+sand

Post by Tim Howard
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread,
like more modern milling?

Very little difference. In fact, the world average life span
remained within the range of 40 right up until industrail
times....

| The average life span of an Englishman, during the early
| eighteenth century, was 29 years, and in London the
| average was considerably lower

http://victorian.lang.nagoya-u.ac.jp/victorianweb/history/hist4.html

Here's an overview:

| Life expectancy before the 'health transition' of the modern era
| is thought to have varied between about 20 years and 35
| years, depending upon particular circumstances. It has been
| suggested that life expectancy fell with the introduction of
| plant and animal domestication [...]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_over_human_history

In short: Ancient Egyptian life expectancy was never going
to surpass the early 40, no matter how they made their
bread.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections. This
was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to their
method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock would get
into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for. So
what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer. So
what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

Is there really evidence of this factoid? I really doubt it. But please show
me. That short a lifespan generally disappeared with the end of the
hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

Yes Egyptians had lots of cavities. But they were also excellent dentists. That
is one of the marvels were find in mummies. That were as good as we were about a
century or so ago.

And death from infection is prevented by extraction, period. And there is very
painful warning that an extraction is needed before there is a risk of death
from infection.

Stone grinding was used until steel grinders replaced them last I heard. Stone
was used all over at least until the 19th century no matter how you look at it.
There may have been a problem with the type of stone locally available but in
Egypt there were some 2000 miles of stone quarries and easy shipping of the good
stones to any place needed.

[Katherine Griffis]

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

While dental abscesses were prevalent at certain times, it was more
likely found in "elderly" individuals (which in ancient Egyptian terms,
was just about anyone over 50 years of age). Ramses II was known for
his dental abscesses (Balout and Roubet 1985), but he was a male in his
late 70's - early 80's at death, having ruled for about 60+ years.

Teeth wear was not an automatic death sentence, and as someone else has
pointed out, denistry techniques were not unknown to the ancient
Egyptians (tooth extraction being pretty much the order of the day).

Amazingly enough, what mainly killed the ancient Egyptians was usual
things like rheumatoid arthritis (due to heavy manual labor compacting
spinal joints), opportunistic infections from cuts and breaks (there
being no specific antibiotics to prevent it (such as apparently killed
Tutankhamun (Williams 2005))), and the ever prevalent schistomiasis
(bilharzia), which still affects about 80% of the Egyptian population
today. They also suffered from silicosis (inhalation of smoke from
internal home fires within their houses), death by childbirth for
females, and so on.

So laying the early death rate of ancient Egyptians upon stoneground
bread alone is, IMO, more than overstating the case. It has been only
in the past 125 years or so that the median age at death has risen
above 50 years of age, which is due to improved diet, medication and
medical treatment, and of course, self-awareness of taking care of
one's health.

See on these issues:

Balout, L. and C. Roubet, Eds. 1985. _La Momie de Ramsès II:
Contribution Scientifique a l'Egyptologie. 1976-1977_. Paris: Éditions
Recherche sur les Civilisations/Muséum National d'Histoire
Naturelle/Musée de l'Homme.

Davies, W. V. and R. Walker, Eds. 1993. _Biological Anthropology and
the Study of Ancient Egypt_. London: British Museum Press.

Janssen, J. J. and R. M. Janssen. 1996. _Getting Old in Ancient Egypt_.
London: Rubicon Press.

Masali, M. and B. Chiarelli. 1972. Demographic Data on the Remains of
Ancient Egyptians. Journal of Human Evolution 1:161-169. (established
the average age at death for ancient Egyptian adults was about 36 years
of age, and slighter higher mortality rate for younger females due to
childbirth. This article is also reprinted in D. R. Brothwell and B.
A. Chiarelli, eds. 1973. _Population Biology of the Ancient
Egyptians_. London and New York: Academic Press.)

Nunn, J. F. 1996. _Ancient Egyptian Medicine_. London: British Museum
Press.

Thorton, F. 1995. Change in Oral Pathology through Time of Nile Valley
Populations Predynastic to Roman. In S. Campbell and A. Green, eds.,
_The Archaeology of Death in the Ancient Near East: 41-44. Oxford:
Oxbow Books.

Williams, A. R. 2005. Modern Technology Reopens the Ancient Case of
King Tut. National Geographic/June 2005: 2-19.

Zimmerman, M. R. 1977. Death at an Early Age: Tuberculosis in Ancient
Egypt. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 47/ 1 (July 1977):
169.

HTH.

Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com

[Matt Giwer]

Katherine Griffis wrote:
...

Post by Katherine Griffis
So laying the early death rate of ancient Egyptians upon stoneground
bread alone is, IMO, more than overstating the case. It has been only
in the past 125 years or so that the median age at death has risen
above 50 years of age, which is due to improved diet, medication and
medical treatment, and of course, self-awareness of taking care of
one's health.

Not so much the improved medicine that far back but Pasteur and the need for
good sanitation and clean water. The kicker for this is the life span in well
run Roman cities was up to our 1900 standards. They had good supplies of running
water and sewers not our 19th c. and prior outhouses near wells standard.

In fact the automobile probably gets major credit in eliminating horses and
thus the number of flies. And then windowscreens to keep them out of houses. I
grew up in a neighborhood where almost everyone had a dog as a pet and flies
were as thick as flies. Cats replacing dogs as pets greatly reduced their number
and for that we credit someone realizing the stuff that picks up oil works as
kitty litter.

There are a lot of changes over the years that have added to life span that
have little to do with improved medicine.

Improved medicine only starts getting credit around 90 years ago when, as
Asimov said, it had a greater than even chance of helping than of making things
worse. It was the time when the scientific method started being applied to
medicine.

When I was growing up in the 50s if a person survived a heart attack his doctor
would send him home with advice to put his affairs in order. That sort of thing
explains all the old mentions of people visiting the sick to say their goodbyes,
something that is rather rare today save in cases of euthanasia like Jackie
Kennedy.

People tend to survive until something catastrophic hits -- the final trauma
description because medicine can generally prolong life after trauma that does
not kill. Again the heart attack example. People do not have another fatal one
in 3 to 10 days. They tend to be put off for an indeterminate time by drugs and
even a second or third is not necessarily fatal.

[n***@yahoo.com]

Post by Katherine Griffis

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

While dental abscesses were prevalent at certain times, it was more
likely found in "elderly" individuals (which in ancient Egyptian terms,
was just about anyone over 50 years of age). Ramses II was known for
his dental abscesses (Balout and Roubet 1985), but he was a male in his
late 70's - early 80's at death, having ruled for about 60+ years.

Wasn't there a theory that Akhenaten formed his religious theories
because praying to the usual gods didn't relieve his toothache? No
religious transformation in Egypt arguably means no Judaism, no
Isreal, no Christianity, no Islam. Without monotheism does
civilisation
progress faster or slower?

[Matt Giwer]

Post by n***@yahoo.com

Post by Katherine Griffis

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

While dental abscesses were prevalent at certain times, it was more
likely found in "elderly" individuals (which in ancient Egyptian terms,
was just about anyone over 50 years of age). Ramses II was known for
his dental abscesses (Balout and Roubet 1985), but he was a male in his
late 70's - early 80's at death, having ruled for about 60+ years.

Wasn't there a theory that Akhenaten formed his religious theories
because praying to the usual gods didn't relieve his toothache? No
religious transformation in Egypt arguably means no Judaism, no
Isreal, no Christianity, no Islam. Without monotheism does
civilisation progress faster or slower?

If we look at the duties of the king of Egypt it was to perform all the primary
religious ceremonies to the major gods like Ra. That meant for Ra getting up
before dawn, going through the purification treatment and then doing the worship
ceremonies. There were several other gods whose worship he had to perform in the
primary temples.

We in fact look at Akhenaten and find no evidence of explicite monotheism but
only that he limited his ceremonies to Ra.

So lazy is as convincing an explanation as anything else.

And after lots of looking I cannot find an explicite statement of monotheism
prior to Mohamed. Judeans worshipped Astarte/Ishtar/Aphrodite into at least the
1st c. AD. Her temples are piously translated as Strato's Towers. The Book of
Allah Jews, Kabbalah types, still have the goddess.

Before Mohamed Christians had only gotten as far as declaring the pagan gods to
be demons in disguise in order to explain miracle cures and a prayer success
rate no better than the Christian god. So they were only at the "godlike" powers
stage before Mohamed.

And True and False gods were meant to be understood as true and false love or
true and false patriot.

[Katherine Griffis]

Post by n***@yahoo.com

Post by Katherine Griffis

Post by Tim Howard
Ancient Egyptians died at a young age-I think the average was in the
early 30s. One reason for this was sickness from tooth infections.
This was caused from their bread, the staple of Egyptian diet. Due to
their method of grinding grain to make the bread, small bits of rock
would get into the bread and would get lodged on people's teeth, causing
infections, for which they evidently could not figure out a cure for.
So what if Egyptians had a better way of making bread, like more modern
milling? This would undoubtably mean people would have lived longer.
So what implications would a relatively older and certainly larger
poplulation have had for ancient Egypt?

While dental abscesses were prevalent at certain times, it was more
likely found in "elderly" individuals (which in ancient Egyptian terms,
was just about anyone over 50 years of age). Ramses II was known for
his dental abscesses (Balout and Roubet 1985), but he was a male in his
late 70's - early 80's at death, having ruled for about 60+ years.

Wasn't there a theory that Akhenaten formed his religious theories
because praying to the usual gods didn't relieve his toothache?

No, I know of no such theory. Possibly you are thinking about the
references in the Amarna Letters (EA 23) that Mittani king Tushratta
sent the Mitannian idol of the goddess Sauska to Amenhotep III to
assist him with his ill-health? There is disagreement that this was
the purpose of sending the goddess' image to the Egyptian king (on
this, see Moran 1992: 62, n. 2, arguing she may have been sent to bless
the eventual marriage of Tushratta's daughter, Tadukhipa, to Amenhotep
III, just as she had traveled for the marriage of Tushratta's sister,
Ghilukhipa, to Amenhotep III some years before).

It has been speculated (usually by laymen interested in the Amarna
period) that _perhaps_ Akehnaten formed the basis of his religion as a
means of explaining his rather odd physiognomy, but this assumes that a
known medical condition occurred which caused the king to be rendered
as he was. There are equal arguments that Akehnaten's penchant for
portraying himself (and Nefertiti) so oddly has more to do with
presenting themselves as divinities on earth (as well as their
children). These opposing theories are outlined in Megaera Lorenz'
online 1996 article on Akhenaten's representations, which can be found
here: http://www.heptune.com/Marfans.html

Post by n***@yahoo.com
No
religious transformation in Egypt arguably means no Judaism, no
Isreal, no Christianity, no Islam. Without monotheism does
civilisation progress faster or slower?

There's no evidence that Atenism was a monotheism; this concept as
introduced by Sigmund Freud in the 19th century, but more modern
analyses of the Amarna period shows that only one divine triad was
proscribed from worship by Akhenaten - Amun, his consort Mut, and their
son Khons. Other deities' cult temples still remained open during the
Amarna period, and some deities other than Aten may have received even
royal favour during Akhenaten's reign (Johnson 1999: 48-49; noting that
images of Ptah and Ptah-Sokar-Osiris replaced Amun images on the
mortuary temple of Amenhotep III during the Amarna period (later to be
replaced by the Amun image during the reign of Tutankhamun); Freed,
Markowitz, et. al, 1999, noting that Akhenaten and Nefertiti often
portrayed themselves as the deities Shu and Tefnut). As Johnson noted:

"Among the implications of this discovery: Akhenaten's religion was not
monotheism, but something far more complex, embracing not only Aten,
but also the deified Amenhotep III, and the gods Ptah and
Ptah-Sokar-Osiris. A review of monuments to gods other than Amen
elsewhere in Egypt, particularly in Memphis and Abydos, reveals no
proscription by Akhenaten; his destruction was highly selective,
focusing on Amen and his associates only." (Johnson 1999: 49)

Rather than a monotheism, it's probably best to classify Atenism as
either a henotheism (the worship of a particular god, as by a family or
tribe, without disbelieving in the existence of others) or a monolatry
(worship of a single god but without claiming that it is the only god;
the worship of only one god although other gods are recognized as
existing). Several articles can be found that reflect this new
position (Stevens 2003, noting that traditional cults were worshipped
within Amarna (Akhetaten) itself by the populace; Assmann 2001; Hornung
1999; Freed, Markowitz, et. al 1999 (throughout)).

References:

Assmann, J. 2001. _The Search for God in Ancient Egypt_. D. Lorton,
transl. Ithaca: Cornell University Press.

Freed, R. E., Y. J. Markowitz, et al., Eds. 1999. _Pharaohs of the Sun:
Akhenaten: Nefertiti: Tutankhamen_. Boston: Museum Fine Arts/Bulfinch
Press/Little, Brown and Company.

Hornung, E. 1999. _Akhenaten and the Religion of Light_. D. Lorton,
transl. Ithaca: Cornell University Press

Johnson, W. R. 1999. The Setting: History, Religion, and Art. In R. E.
Freed, Y. J. Markowitz and S. H. D'Auria, Eds., _Pharaohs of the Sun:
Akhenaten: Nefertiti: Tutankhamen_: 38-49. Boston: Museum Fine
Arts/Bulfinch Press/Little, Brown and Company.

Moran, W. L. 1992. _The Amarna Letters_. Baltimore: John Hopkins
University Press.

Stevens, A. 2003. The Material Evidence for Domestic Religion at Amarna
and Preliminary Remarks on its Interpretation. JEA 89: 143-168. (see
also a statuette of Thoth, as found in Amarna House O 47, on p. 258,
No. 185 of _Pharaohs of the Sun: Akhenaten: Nefertiti: Tutankhamen_).

HTH.

Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com

[JTEM]

Post by Katherine Griffis
There's no evidence that Atenism was a monotheism;

While there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the
inhabitants of Judea -- even after ALL the imaginary
dates for a biblical Exodus -- were NOT monotheistic.

Even in the bible we have:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

And NOT:

"There are no other gods"

Many would (and do) argue that the roots of monotheism
in the middle east can be found in the Amun cult.

Post by Katherine Griffis
From a source that you've cited in the past (the Egyptian

government's website):

| At the apex of his worship, Egyptian religion approached
| monotheism. The other gods became mere symbols of
| his power, or manifestations of Amun-Re. In essence, he
| became the one and only supreme deity.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amun-re.htm

[Matt Giwer]

Post by JTEM

Post by Katherine Griffis
There's no evidence that Atenism was a monotheism;

While there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the
inhabitants of Judea -- even after ALL the imaginary
dates for a biblical Exodus -- were NOT monotheistic.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

In fact the Hebrew version starts with

I, Adoni, am your god ...

Post by JTEM
"There are no other gods"

The things translated as Strato's Towers are STRT BT Astarte's temple as in
YHWH BT, lord's temple or a more whimisical, house of the Lord. Astarte is
variously known as Ishtar, Astoroth and Aphrodite.

Post by JTEM
Many would (and do) argue that the roots of monotheism
in the middle east can be found in the Amun cult.

Post by Katherine Griffis
From a source that you've cited in the past (the Egyptian

| At the apex of his worship, Egyptian religion approached
| monotheism. The other gods became mere symbols of
| his power, or manifestations of Amun-Re. In essence, he
| became the one and only supreme deity.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amun-re.htm