min-god in luxor

I think the Egyptians had very good eyesight that is how they could see
sperm. Think about it, how else could they see sperm if they didn't have a
microscope? Now what I want to know is did the Egyptians know how to do the
Hokey Pokey? You know, where you put you left foot in and take your right
foot out. I bet they knew a lot of cool stuff like that. Another thing,
what songs did they sing at the Karaoke bars?

Post by jan
last week I visited the temple in Luxor, Egypt. The guide showed us a
bas-relief of the god Min (the ethyphallic god). We saw very clearly
a
graved image of a sperm cell. I was very curious about how the
egyptians would have knowledge about a microscopical detail, and I
thought finding quickly an answer on the net. However, I did find
nothing about this subject.
Is there amongst you people anybody who can make me wiser here?
Thanks
a lot.

jan

2007-02-24 07:59:26 UTC

Post by Rick915
I think the Egyptians had very good eyesight that is how they could see
sperm. Think about it, how else could they see sperm if they didn't have a
microscope? Now what I want to know is did the Egyptians know how to do the
Hokey Pokey? You know, where you put you left foot in and take your right
foot out. I bet they knew a lot of cool stuff like that. Another thing,
what songs did they sing at the Karaoke bars?

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

http://picasaweb.google.be/janmeers/Egypte2007/photo#5035003892195190754

here you find the photos I took. When entering the temple you find it
at the right wall, in a more or less narrow place, so big groups don't
get easily the occasion to see it. The egyptian guide showed us this,
but had no further explanation, exept for aan attempt that in those
times they had glass, so...
Unless this is a practical joke of one of mr Carters crew or
something, this looked rather bizarre to me.
Of course this could as well be a caraoke microphone, but I am not
sure.

Katherine Griffis

2007-03-02 07:40:02 UTC

Post by jan

Post by Rick915

Post by jan
last week I visited the temple in Luxor, Egypt. The guide showed us a
bas-relief of the god Min (the ethyphallic god). We saw very clearly
a graved image of a sperm cell. I was very curious about how the
egyptians would have knowledge about a microscopical detail, and I
thought finding quickly an answer on the net. However, I did find
nothing about this subject.
Is there amongst you people anybody who can make me wiser here?
Thanks a lot.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

http://picasaweb.google.be/janmeers/Egypte2007/photo#5035003892195190754

The symbol is Gardiner sign F17 in the hieroglyph sign list.
According to Gardiner, it is a combination of F16 (horn) and D 60 (a
jar pouring water), which is the ideogram (determinative) for the
term, "pure, clean". Hence the term is /abw/, meaning
"purification" (Gardiner 1982 (1957): 463).

It is _not_ a spermatazoa, but a jar pouring water over a horn and
referring to the act of purification.

Reference:

Gardiner, A. H. 1982 (1957). _Egyptian Grammar: Being an Introduction
to the Study of Hieroglyphs_. Third Ed., Revised. Oxford: Griffith
Institute.

HTH.

Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com

Eugene Griessel

2007-03-02 13:34:03 UTC

Post by Katherine Griffis
The symbol is Gardiner sign F17 in the hieroglyph sign list.
According to Gardiner, it is a combination of F16 (horn) and D 60 (a
jar pouring water), which is the ideogram (determinative) for the
term, "pure, clean". Hence the term is /abw/, meaning
"purification" (Gardiner 1982 (1957): 463).
It is _not_ a spermatazoa, but a jar pouring water over a horn and
referring to the act of purification.

Yes - a jar pouring water and not a lotus bud. My mistake. Any
chance of a translation of the text - or the bit visible?

Eugene L Griessel

'We've alway done it this way' is the most damaging phrase in the
language. - Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

Katherine Griffis

2007-03-04 07:54:14 UTC

Yes - a jar pouring water and not a lotus bud. My mistake. Any
chance of a translation of the text - or the bit visible?

As the entire inscription is not visible, I can only take a rough
guess here, but approximately /mAAt abw m.../, possibly "do/make
purification with (?) [multiple = |||] ..."

The line to the right has something to do with 'giving water
(offerings)', I should think. Most of the text appears to be part of
the standard daily ritual text for a divinity.

Information on purification rites, the daily cult ritual for a
divinity, and offerings of water, can be found here:

Altenmüller-Kesting, B. 1968. _Reinigungsriten im ägyptischen Kult_.
Hamburg.

Barta, W. 1967. Das Opferritual im täglichen Tempelkult. JEOL 6/19:
457-461.

Bartel, H.-G. 2002. Funktionale Aspekte des Täglichen Rituals im
Tempel Sethos' I. in Abydos. In H. Beinlich, A. Egberts, R. Gundlach,
D. Kurth and S. Wenig, Eds., _Ägyptologische Tempeltagung, Wurzburg
23-26 September, 1999_, 5: 1-16. Ägypten und Altes Testament 33/Akten
der Ägyptologischen Tempeltagungen. M. Görg. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz.

__________. 2001. Über den "Spruch bein Fortziehen der Riegel" in
Santuaren des Tempels Sethos' I. in Abydos I. Teil. In B. Muller, Ed.,
_«Maquettes Architecturales» de l'Antiquité. Regards croisés (Proche-
Orient, Égypte, Chypre, bassin égéen et Grèce, du Néolithique à
l'époque hellénistique)_: 55-81. Travaux du Centre de Recherche sur le
Proche-Orient et la Grèce Antiques 17. Paris: Diffusion de Boccard.

Blackman, A. M. 1998. Purification. In A. B. Lloyd, Ed., _Gods,
Priests and Men: Studies in the Religion of Pharaonic Egypt by Aylward
M. Blackman. Studies in Egyptology_: 3-21. G. T. Martin. London: Kegan
Paul International.

Bleeker, C. J. 1968. Guilt and Purity in Ancient Egypt. In
_Proceedings of the XIth International Congress of the International
Association for the History of Religions_, II. Guilt or Pollution and
Rites of Purification: 47. Leiden: Brill.

Fairman, H. W. 1954. Worship and Festivals in an Egyptian Temple.
Bulletin of the John Rylands Library 37/1: 165-183.

Gee, J. L. 1998. _The Requirements of Ritual Purity in Ancient Egypt_.
Ph.D. Dissertation (Unpublished). Yale University: New Haven.
(Available from www.proquest.com)

Geßler-Löhr, B. 1983. _Die heiligen Seen ägyptischer Tempel. Ein
Beitrage zur Deutung sakraler Baunkunst im alten Ägypten_.
Hildesheimer Ägyptologische Beiträge 21. A. Eggebrecht. Hildesheim:
Gerstenberg Verlag.

Koenig, Y. 1994. L'eau et la magie. In B. Menu, ed., _Les problèmes
institutionnels de l'eau en Égypte ancienne et dans l'Antiquité
méditerranéenne_: 239-248. Colloque AIDEA Vogüé 1992. Bibliothèque
d'étude 110. Cairo: IFAO.

Moret, A. 1902. _Le Rituel du Culte Divin Journalier in Egypte.
D'Après les Papyrus de Berlin et les Textes du Temple de Séti Ier, a
Abydos_. First Ed. Annales du Musée Guimet. Paris: Ernest Leroux.

Roeder, G. 1960. _Kulte, Orakel und Naturverehrung im Alten Ägypten_.
Die Bibliothek der Alten Welt. W. Rüegg. Zürich/Stuttgart: Artemis.

Wiedemann, A. 1901. Bronze circles and purification vessels in
Egyptian temples. Proceedings of the Society of Biblical Archaeology
23: 263-274.

HTH.

Regards --
---
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon)
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt, SSEA, ASOR

Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology]
University of Oxford
Oxford, United Kingdom

http://www.griffis-consulting.com

Eugene Griessel

2007-03-04 08:45:20 UTC

Post by Katherine Griffis

Yes - a jar pouring water and not a lotus bud. My mistake. Any
chance of a translation of the text - or the bit visible? =20

As the entire inscription is not visible, I can only take a rough
guess here, but approximately /mAAt abw m.../, possibly "do/make
purification with (?) [multiple =3D |||] ..."
The line to the right has something to do with 'giving water
(offerings)', I should think. Most of the text appears to be part of
the standard daily ritual text for a divinity.
Information on purification rites, the daily cult ritual for a

Thank you - I am trying (quite unsuccessfully at present) to gain a
little knowledge of hieroglyphics. Currently I can recognise all the
uniconsonantal ones and a few of the bi and tri consonantals. And a
handful of the standard phrases (ruler of upper and lower Egypt, Son
of Ra, etc.) but it's not easy when one has little time and is in any
case poor at languages! I speak/muddle through badly in handful of
tongues - but never seem to be able to get to grips with the
illogicality of a lot of the grammar!

Eugene L Griessel

A censor is an expert in cutting remarks.

Eugene Griessel

2007-02-24 08:54:42 UTC

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Eugene Griessel

2007-02-24 14:48:47 UTC

If you look on
http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/F-partsMammals.html
you will fimd that particular hieroglyph.

Eugene L Griessel

Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.

Ice Storm

2007-02-25 09:21:45 UTC

This is not new. People have recognised the similarity before
and have had discussions about it ......
But it is a plant of some kind, a water plant if I remember.
An unopened bulb on a stem and maybe a water lily in formative
stage. I think the glyph implies new growth or formative stage or
something like that? It is not a human spermatazoa - the anatomy
is wrong. In fact the anatomy is strictly botanical vs mamalian!

I am sure this glyph is on a standard list somewhere -

KLM

Eugene Griessel

2007-02-25 09:26:49 UTC

This is not new. People have recognised the similarity before
and have had discussions about it ......
But it is a plant of some kind, a water plant if I remember.
An unopened bulb on a stem and maybe a water lily in formative
stage. I think the glyph implies new growth or formative stage or
something like that? It is not a human spermatazoa - the anatomy
is wrong. In fact the anatomy is strictly botanical vs mamalian!
I am sure this glyph is on a standard list somewhere -

It's F17 on Gardiner's list - supposed to be a horn and a lotus bud
and the glyph denotes "purity" or "cleansing". That's my reading of
it though - and I am far, far from being even mediocre at hieroglphs.

I read - and once again note the disclaimer - the beginning of that as
IRTABWAU ..... but whether the first glyph is determinative I cannot
tell and what it means I have not a clue. Surely somebody here can
read hieroglyphics?

Eugene L Griessel

If psychics are for real..why don't they call us?

jerry warner

2007-02-26 08:43:06 UTC

This is not new. People have recognised the similarity before
and have had discussions about it ......
But it is a plant of some kind, a water plant if I remember.
An unopened bulb on a stem and maybe a water lily in formative
stage. I think the glyph implies new growth or formative stage or
something like that? It is not a human spermatazoa - the anatomy
is wrong. In fact the anatomy is strictly botanical vs mamalian!
I am sure this glyph is on a standard list somewhere -

That's it - exactly! Thanks. Lotus bud. Purity/cleansing = renewal/
spring/youth....

Post by Eugene Griessel
I read - and once again note the disclaimer - the beginning of that as
IRTABWAU ..... but whether the first glyph is determinative I cannot
tell and what it means I have not a clue. Surely somebody here can
read hieroglyphics?

I have never spent any time trying to read Egyptian hiero's of
which I think there are several forms, at least, maybe many?
My languages were Aarabic/Ivrit and Amer indian languges years
go ............ thanks.
Jerry

Post by Eugene Griessel
Eugene L Griessel
If psychics are for real..why don't they call us?

Eugene Griessel

2007-02-26 12:30:53 UTC

Post by jerry warner

This is not new. People have recognised the similarity before
and have had discussions about it ......
But it is a plant of some kind, a water plant if I remember.
An unopened bulb on a stem and maybe a water lily in formative
stage. I think the glyph implies new growth or formative stage or
something like that? It is not a human spermatazoa - the anatomy
is wrong. In fact the anatomy is strictly botanical vs mamalian!
I am sure this glyph is on a standard list somewhere -

That's it - exactly! Thanks. Lotus bud. Purity/cleansing = renewal/
spring/youth....

Ateh medabar ivrit?

Eugene L Griessel

I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Yuppie Killer

2007-02-27 08:29:10 UTC

Post by jerry warner

This is not new. People have recognised the similarity before
and have had discussions about it ......
But it is a plant of some kind, a water plant if I remember.
An unopened bulb on a stem and maybe a water lily in formative
stage. I think the glyph implies new growth or formative stage or
something like that? It is not a human spermatazoa - the anatomy
is wrong. In fact the anatomy is strictly botanical vs mamalian!
I am sure this glyph is on a standard list somewhere -

That's it - exactly! Thanks. Lotus bud. Purity/cleansing = renewal/
spring/youth....

Ateh medabar ivrit?
Eugene L Griessel
I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

I would spell it differently and use 'atah' ? Cen (Qen/Ken).
My professor was Frederich Bargebeuhr in Berlin and later at
the U of I in Iowa City, if that means anything. There have been
ongoing discussions about the origins of Ivrit over at
soc.history.ancient, in case you are interested. Some very
knowledgeable people there - some real idiots too.
Boqer tov -
yermiah

Eugene Griessel

2007-02-27 08:41:57 UTC