Ownership of very old iron tools ,

[kangarooistan]

If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him , I image for
legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police station to confirm
it is clearly discarded long ago , and the owner is long ago dead ??

BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe that was fashioned in
say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago , which is
what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing about
now , but its my time and money and its no crime to be wrong , its a
crime IMHO to not investigate what has no other explanation and I
remain confident the facts could and will be tested and its not hard
to confirm its genuine as its still stuck as found in original stone /
cemented gravels


Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine

I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate or forge this specimen

A examination may possibly identify the origins of the iron , but
Aboriginal people had no history of making iron tools

And its design may locate its age and manufacturers

geologists could date the age and authenicity of the sample in which
it is firmly and intimately imbedded / rusted in a way that can not
not be reproduced in a fraudulent or in fact any other way

Experts could establish if its a fraud or a copy , that may require
the specimen traveling into say UK , US , Egypt , France , which may
become legally difficult once its confirmed to be genuine many people
will become interested IMHO

Once they confirm its genuine , and perhaps they have some distant
claim , could they seize it >>

, it is likely to be from of Egyptian manufacture IMHO , I have
found many other less well preserved specimens before and am not
convinced its worth further investigation with my latest find , but it
most definitely is stuck in Australian cemented gravel , easily
established , and that is much much older than any known European
contact with Australia , I have no doubt that in time it will be
sought after if and when it is further examined , and the skeptics
have satisfied themselves once experts have done their work ,
naturally they wont believe an amateur fossicker , experts tend to
dismiss claims of this nature as a dime a dozen ,its my job to
establish the evidence and their job to examine it in due time if they
choose

I know it is not a fraud and have spent many years seeking
explanations for similar but less well identified metal / iron
specimens found on the site , but this one retains enough detail to
actually look still like a iron tool , and is still embedded as
found , shows signs its been damaged and discarded , well embedded
in the native cemented gravels that could probably be dated by most
experts ,

If a person in Australia found an very rusted ancient iron tool
embedded in ancient cemented river gravel . not of Aboriginal
manufacture , that later proved to be made from meteoric iron mined in
the UK but made in Egypt 3000yeas ago

Who might claim ownership ? I am considering sending it to Egypt for
examination and dont want to get arrested at the airports for
smuggling in or out antiquities , it actually looks like an old rock
of a few kg , to most people , I would photo / declare it in and out
of every country just to be sure

What rights of intellectually property may the finder claim if the
tool/ rock was seized by somebody , could i claim ownership of the
research / science/ location / photos ???

I suspect this tool may be taken to Egypt , UK , France and US for
experts opinion , and if it is genuine belongs in a museum , an
Australian museum IMHO , but its not made in Australia so it may link
to some other museum as well

commercially it would have little value even if its genuine .its
simply rusty iron stuck in river gravel

it is not pretty , and only has value to experts who know its
genuine , 99.9% of people would not even want it in their shed and
museums would not want it on display as its only a very few experts
who could see its value to dating historic mining activity

kanga
======

[Peter Alaca]

Post by kangarooistan
If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him , I image for
legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police station to confirm
it is clearly discarded long ago , and the owner is long ago dead ??
BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe that was fashioned in
say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago , which is
what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing about
now , but its my time and money and its no crime to be wrong , its a
crime IMHO to not investigate what has no other explanation and I
remain confident the facts could and will be tested and its not hard
to confirm its genuine as its still stuck as found in original stone /
cemented gravels
Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine
I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate or forge this specimen

Why not? If you can establish make, origin and travelings
of a piece of rock, without any knowledge ...

Post by kangarooistan
[...]

[clanker]

Post by kangarooistan
If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel

...(and this "Australian" was KangaRootsHisHand) he should immediately
drive it firmly into his skull causing massive bleeding and a slow
painful death !

Make a nice soup out of it and share it with his froggie-fraud 'mate'
Sir Japie Turdfraud .....?

[the man from havana]

Post by clanker

If an Australian  found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel

...(and this "Australian" was KangaRootsHisHand) he should immediately
drive it firmly into his skull causing massive bleeding and a slow
painful death !
Make a nice soup out of it and share it with his froggie-fraud 'mate'
Sir Japie Turdfraud .....?

LOL , now THAT was funny ! 3 thumbs up

[kangarooistan]

If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him ?

, I image for legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police
station to confirm it is clearly discarded long ago , and the owner
is long ago dead ??

BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe that was fashioned
in say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago ,
which is what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing
about now , but its my time and money and its no crime to be wrong ,
its a crime IMHO to not investigate what has no other explanation
and I remain confident the facts could and will be tested and its
not hard
to confirm its a genuine iron tool used in mining probably 2500
years ago , as its still stuck as found , in original stone /
cemented gravels ,

Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine

I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate or forge this specimen so rusted
yet securely and intimate embedded in the supporting rock that has
formed around it over the years

A examination may possibly identify the origins of the iron , but
Australian Aboriginal people had no history of making iron tools ,
so it clearly came from over seas and the site shows extensive mining
activity that now is confirmed beyond all doubt that somebody had
opened up the site several thousand years ago

And its design may help locate its age and manufacturers

geologists could date the age and authenticity of the sample in
which it is firmly and intimately embedded / rusted in a way that
can not not be reproduced in a fraudulent or in fact any other way

Experts could establish if its a fraud or a copy , that may require
the specimen traveling into say UK , US , Egypt , France or China for
only by seeing it can the tool be easily seen and the setting
confirmed as genuine , which may become legally difficult once its
confirmed to be genuine many people will become very interested IMHO

Once they confirm its genuine , and perhaps they have some distant
claim , could they seize it at the airport once they know its real
and perhaps came originally from Egypt / or China

, it is likely to be from of Egyptian manufacture IMHO , I have
found many other less well preserved specimens before but nothing so
complete still embedded in native stone material, I am convinced its
worth further investigation with my latest find , but it most
definitely is stuck in Australian cemented ancient river gravel ,
easily established by experts in arcaeology , , and that is much
much older than any known European contact with Australia , I have
no doubt that in time it will be sought after if and when it is
further examined , the skeptics will in time satisfied themselves
once experts have done their work , naturally they wont believe an
amateur fossicker , experts tend to dismiss claims of this nature as
a dime a dozen ,its my job to establish the evidence is sound and
their job to examine it in due time , if they choose

I know it is not a fraud and have spent many years seeking
explanations for similar but less well identified metal / iron
specimens found on the site , but this one retains enough detail to
actually look still like a iron tool , and is still embedded as
found , shows signs its been damaged and discarded , well embedded
in the native cemented gravels that could probably easily dated by
most experts ,

If a person in Australia found an very rusted ancient iron tool
embedded in ancient cemented river gravel . not of Aboriginal
manufacture , that later proved to be made from meteoric iron mined
in the UK but made in Egypt 3000 years ago

Who might claim ownership ? I am considering sending it to Egypt for
examination and dont want to get arrested at the airports for
smuggling in or out antiquities , it actually looks like an old rock
of a few kg , to most people , I would photo / declare it in and out
of every country just to be sure

What rights of intellectually property may the finder claim if the
tool/ rock was seized by some country , could i claim ownership of
the research / science/ location / photos ???

I have spent many decades searching for this piece of the puzzle that
looked like an ancient large scale gold mine not used for thousands of
years and now have hard verifiable transportable evidence that can
easily be tested

I suspect this tool may be taken to Egypt , UK , France and US for
experts on ancient iron tools opinions , and if it is genuine it
belongs in a museum , an Australian museum IMHO , but its not made
in Australia , so it may link to some other museum as well or
instead

commercially it would have little value , even if its genuine .its
simply rusty iron stuck in cemeted river gravel conglomerate

it is not pretty , and only has value to experts who know its
genuine , 99.9% of people would not even want it in their shed and
museums would not want it on display ,its only a very few experts
who could see its value to dating historic mining activity

kanga
======

No point in listing a picture , its only with expert actually seeing
the real thing that its possible to tell its age or setting in the
cemented gravel material it was found in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm


http://images.google.com.au/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=ancient%20iron%20tools&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

[Tom McDonald]

If an Australian  found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him ?

Depends on the laws. In the States, it would depend on whether it was
found on public or private land. In Wisconsin, at any rate, any
'navigable waters' (usually water deep enough to float a canoe) is
considered public property, even if it is on private land. In that
case, something found in even seasonally navigable stream beds would
be potentially public property.

 , I image for  legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police
station to confirm   it is clearly discarded long ago ,  and the owner
is long ago dead  ??

See above for other discussion. However, you are probably right that
it was lost or discarded long enough ago to be considered abandoned
property.

  BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron

Why meteoric iron? At 2000 y.a., or even 3000 y.a. as you suggest
below, iron was fairly widely known in Britain, Europe and Egypt. Why
assume, without assay, that your iron bit was meteoric rather than
smelted from more down to earth ore?

say from UK or Europe that was fashioned
in  say Egypt  and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago ,
which is  what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing
about now ,

A bit, yes.

but its my time and money  and its no crime to be wrong  ,

Right-o.

its a  crime  IMHO to not investigate what has no other
explanation

If it hasn't been studied, then you can't even begin to say it has 'no
other explanation' than being a bit of anonymous meteoric iron from
the Iron Age that wound up in Oz better than one and one-half
millennia before any known interaction between the West and the little
continent.

and I  remain confident the facts could and will  be tested and its
not hard
to confirm its a  genuine  iron tool used in mining probably 2500
years ago ,

Is there any evidence of mining of any type in the region at that time
depth? Or is this part of the conjecture you are building up around
things you've found and thought?

as its still stuck as found , in original stone /
cemented gravels ,
Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine

Anything can be contested. That's why lawyers live in better houses
than you or I do.

I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate  or forge this specimen so rusted
yet securely  and intimate embedded in the supporting rock that has
formed around it over the years

It shouldn't be difficult to establish location, especially if you and
others have left it in place. A GPS location, a metes-and-bounds
description, some photos establishing the location in a series from
close-ups through increasingly distant shots to some over-all site
shots, along with a detailed written description of the find, the site
and some dates should do it.

A examination may possibly  identify the origins of the iron , but
Australian  Aboriginal people had no history of making  iron tools ,
so it clearly came from over seas and the site shows extensive mining
activity that now is confirmed beyond all doubt that somebody had
opened up the site several thousand years ago

Upon what undoubted evidence, exactly, did you establish that mining,
for something Aboriginals wouldn't have used (e.g. not toolstone or
other material they were known to use) was conducted in the area?

And what evidence do you have that the purported mining activity took
place millennia ago? Have you ruled out it being works from the
colonial period or later?

If you are basing your dating on an iron tool being found embedded in
solidified river bed materials, you are putting the cart before the
horse. Find a mining and/or geology expert to tell you what sort of
material you are dealing with, and then conjecture.

And its design may  help locate its age and manufacturers
geologists could date the age and authenticity of the  sample in
which  it is firmly and intimately  embedded / rusted  in a way that
can not  not be reproduced  in a fraudulent or in fact any other way

Any other way that what? Having been abandoned 2000 years ago? Why not
200 years ago? Or 20 years ago? Without that geologist's investigation
you mention, you can't know.

Experts could establish if its a fraud or a copy , that may require
the specimen traveling into say UK , US , Egypt , France or China for
only by seeing it can the tool be easily seen and the setting
confirmed as genuine , which may  become legally difficult once its
confirmed to be genuine many people  will become very interested IMHO
Once they confirm its genuine ,

*IF* it is confirmed as genuine, and of the age and material you
suspect it is, that is.

 and perhaps they have some distant
claim , could they seize it  at the airport once they know its real
and perhaps came originally from Egypt / or China
 , it is likely to be from of  Egyptian  manufacture IMHO , I have
found many other less well preserved specimens before but nothing so
complete still embedded in native stone material, I am   convinced its
worth further investigation with my latest find , but it  most
definitely is stuck in Australian cemented ancient  river  gravel ,
easily  established by experts in arcaeology , , and  that is much
much older than any known European  contact with Australia  , I have
no doubt that in time it will be  sought after if and when it is
further examined ,  the skeptics  will in time  satisfied themselves
once experts have done their work ,  naturally they wont believe an
amateur fossicker , experts tend to  dismiss claims of this nature  as
a dime a dozen ,its my job to establish the evidence is sound and
their job to examine it in due time , if they  choose
I know it is not a fraud and have spent many years seeking
explanations for similar but  less well  identified metal / iron
specimens found on the site , but this one retains enough detail to
actually look still like a iron tool ,  and is still embedded as
found ,  shows signs its been damaged and discarded , well embedded
in the  native cemented gravels that could probably  easily  dated by
most  experts ,
If a person in Australia found an very rusted  ancient iron tool
embedded in ancient cemented river gravel . not of Aboriginal
manufacture , that later proved to be made from meteoric iron mined
in  the UK but made in Egypt 3000 years ago
Who might claim ownership ? I am considering sending it to Egypt for
examination and dont want to get arrested at the airports for
smuggling in or out antiquities , it actually looks like an old rock
of a few kg , to most people , I would  photo / declare it in and out
of every country just to be sure
What rights of intellectually property may the finder claim if the
tool/ rock  was seized by some country  , could i claim ownership of
the  research / science/ location / photos  ???
I have spent many decades searching for this piece of the puzzle that
looked like an ancient large scale gold mine not used for thousands of
years and now have hard verifiable transportable evidence that can
easily be tested

Where is the gold now?

I suspect this tool may be taken to Egypt , UK ,  France and US  for
experts  on ancient iron tools opinions , and if it is genuine it
belongs in a museum  , an   Australian museum IMHO , but its not made
in Australia , so it may link  to some other museum as well or
instead
commercially it would have little value , even if its genuine .its
simply rusty iron stuck in  cemeted river gravel conglomerate
it is not pretty ,  and only has value  to experts who know its
genuine , 99.9% of people would not even want it in their shed and
museums would not want it on display ,its only  a very few experts
who could see its value to dating  historic mining activity
kanga
======
No point in listing a picture ,

Yes, in fact there is a point to doing so. You are asking us to
comment on something that, were it shown in decent images, with proper
lighting and a proper scale comparison, might be immediately
explicable.

its only with expert actually seeing
the real thing that its possible to tell its age or setting in the
cemented gravel material it was found in

When you say 'cemented gravel', what do you mean? Concretions can form
in a very short time, and yet be very durable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm
http://images.google.com.au/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:e...

All the above are reasons to show an image of the thing itself.

[kangarooistan]

On Apr 23, 4:53 pm, Tom McDonald <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tom

Thanks for your thought mate

Im happy to debate the topic and even try and answer some of your
questions

BUT we can not reach an agreement on some things without acrually
seeing holding and examining the " tool ' or if a respected scholar/
expert or 3 has and THEN an online debate may be fruitful

What you or I think matters little , and I prefer to get the experts
to examine it first

Its pointless to try and prove this online IMHO, having it in your
hand is worth a million words

Post by Tom McDonald

Post by kangarooistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm
http://images.google.com.au/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:e...

All the above are reasons to show an image of the thing itself.

I could post an image and the fist claim would be photo shop I could
write a book on the site after 50 years of research so far and 100
years before that when dad and granpa mined the site , and you would
not read it

I know where the experts are who can answer all your questions

I ask re legal ownership

as I suspect that I may not be permitted to take it out of Egypt /
China or Europe if it is found to be as I suspect over 2000 years
old , and I will need to send several younger people to carry out
this for me I dont want them arrested for " smuggling " antiquities
or risk losing the specimens in a legal tug of war , DUE DILIGENCE ??

I found older "tools" on the site , but these are explainable as
meteoric iron , its their number , and consistent size and shape ,
that first alerted me to the possibility the site was as it appears ,
involved in some ancient mining of a vast quartz reef back when
meteorite iron tools were the only ones able to work quartz and hence
the number of chisel tips shaped iron meters underground in areas of
disturbed ground that looks like a very large modern mine in its lay
out ,that was opened up and abandoned in the 1800s as unprofitable

This tool is larger and halfted, neat sq handle hole, not the simple
forged chisel tips I often find , probably from a later period of
mining ?? , my family were the first to mine the area in the 1800s and
I now the site very very well , you may google "fabian quartz" the
gold bearing quartz is named after my grandfather , I remain
convinced it is indeed an ancient mine , but agree i need more
evidence so my POV remains just that , do you suggest i stop looking
because I dont yet have the answers to the questions raised by my
observations of the site??

We could debate online forever and solve nothing mate , I may be
wrong , and no harm done , If I am right my discovery will be about
as famous as my grandfather isnt , nobody ever heard of him either ,
its not every bodies cup of tea

Are you into mining , law , or archaeology ??

BUT , I bet my balls this iron tool is over 2000 years old

Some things need to be done in person with an expert in the field

The specimen exists , and a handful of experts opinions will be
sought , What ever you I or those reading this think , will never
prove anything about the tool and matters not

The specimen will stand or fall on its merits , and then a picture
along with their opinion will be subject to further debate over the
site and answers to many of your questions become worthy of further
examination

No point putting the horse before the cart ,it wont take long to have
it examined , then I will gladly deal with your other questions

Archaeologists can easily confirm the tools age and if it genuine and
the sample is contained within consolidated / river gravel
conglomerate most geologists will recognize and be able to match with
the site


Results 1 - 10 of about 4,110 for fabian Quartzite south australia.
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1.
Stratigraphic Search - Full Results - Geoscience Australia
Geological Survey of South Australia 1v Map legend.
Stratigraphic unit: Fabian Quartzite Member Usage: Briefly described
(Map Legend) ...
dbforms.ga.gov.au/pls/www/geodx.strat_units.sch_full?
wher=stratno=23585 - 15k - Cached - Similar pages -
2.
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Basal conglomerate, arkosic grit with some BIF, upwards into
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Australia 1v Map ...
dbforms.ga.gov.au/pls/www/geodx.strat_units.sch_full?
wher=stratno=17845 - 35k - Cached - Similar pages -
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3.
The geology and genesis of the Tarcoola gold deposits, South
Australia
Craton in northwestern Eyre Peninsula, South Australia. The gold
deposits are hosted in the .... The Fabian Quartzite Member is a
sequence of laminated ...
www.springerlink.com/index/PL217L745345W641.pdf - Similar pages
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by KAA Hein - 1994 - Cited by 3 - Related articles - All 3
versions
4.
The geology and genesis of the Tarcoola gold deposits, South
Australia
The geology and genesis of the Tarcoola gold deposits, South
Australia ... the shallow marine Fabian Quartzite Member, and the
marine Sullivan Shale Member. ...
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994MinDe..29..224H - Similar pages -
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7. [PDF]
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File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
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to be extinct ...
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1.
Stratigraphic Search - Full Results - Geoscience Australia
Geological Survey of South Australia 1v Map legend.
Stratigraphic unit: Fabian Quartzite Member Usage: Briefly described
(Map Legend) ...
dbforms.ga.gov.au/pls/www/geodx.strat_units.sch_full?
wher=stratno=23585 - 15k - Cached - Similar pages -
2.
Stratigraphic Search - Full Results - Geoscience Australia
Basal conglomerate, arkosic grit with some BIF, upwards into
quartzite with .... 1:1 000 000 (2 sheets) Geological Survey of South
Australia 1v Map ...
dbforms.ga.gov.au/pls/www/geodx.strat_units.sch_full?
wher=stratno=17845 - 35k - Cached - Similar pages -
More results from dbforms.ga.gov.au >>
3.
The geology and genesis of the Tarcoola gold deposits, South
Australia
Craton in northwestern Eyre Peninsula, South Australia. The gold
deposits are hosted in the .... The Fabian Quartzite Member is a
sequence of laminated ...
www.springerlink.com/index/PL217L745345W641.pdf - Similar pages
-
by KAA Hein - 1994 - Cited by 3 - Related articles - All 3
versions
4.
The geology and genesis of the Tarcoola gold deposits, South
Australia
The geology and genesis of the Tarcoola gold deposits, South
Australia ... the shallow marine Fabian Quartzite Member, and the
marine Sullivan Shale Member. ...
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994MinDe..29..224H - Similar pages -
by KAA Hein - 1994 - Cited by 3 - Related articles - All 3
versions
5.
The Nature and Origin of Gold Deposits of the Tarcoola
Goldfield ...
The Tarcoola goldfield in central South Australia is hosted by
the Paleoproterozoic ..... The Fabian Quartzite Member contains thin,
laminated carbonates ...
econgeol.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/full/102/8/1541 -
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by AR Budd - 2007 - Related articles - All 2 versions
6.
The Nature and Origin of Gold Deposits of the Tarcoola Goldfield
and
Implications for the Central Gawler Gold Province, South
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Member. ...
econgeol.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/reprint/102/8/1541.pdf -
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Biological Survey of the Yellabinna Region, South Australia
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
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to be extinct ...
www.environment.sa.gov.au/biodiversity/pdfs/biosurvey/yellabinna/yellabinna_pt2.pdf
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www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1400-0952.2004.01084.x
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Geoscience Australia Stratigraphic Reference Search: 21
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[Tom McDonald]

Post by kangarooistan
Hi Tom
Thanks for your thought mate
Im happy to debate the topic and even try and answer some of your
questions
BUT we can not reach an agreement on some things without acrually
seeing holding and examining the " tool ' or if a respected scholar/
expert or 3 has and THEN an online debate may be fruitful
What  you or I think matters little , and I prefer to get the experts
to examine it first
Its pointless to try and prove this online IMHO, having it in your
hand is worth a million words

Post by Tom McDonald

Post by kangarooistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm
http://images.google.com.au/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:e...

All the above are reasons to show an image of the thing itself.

I could post an image and the fist claim would be photo shop I could
write a book on the site after 50 years of research so far and 100
years before that when dad and granpa mined the site , and you would
not read it
I know where the experts are who can answer all your questions
I ask re legal ownership
as I suspect that I may not be permitted to take it out of Egypt /
China or Europe if it is found to be as I suspect over 2000 years
old , and I will need to send  several younger people to carry out
this for me I dont want them arrested for " smuggling " antiquities
or risk losing the  specimens in a legal tug of war , DUE DILIGENCE ??
I found older "tools"  on the site ,  but these are explainable as
meteoric iron , its their number ,  and consistent size and shape ,
that first alerted me to the possibility the site was as it appears ,
involved in some ancient mining of a vast quartz reef back when
meteorite iron tools were the only ones able to work quartz and hence
the number of chisel tips shaped  iron  meters underground in areas of
disturbed ground that looks like a very large modern mine in its lay
out ,that was opened up and abandoned in the 1800s as unprofitable
This tool is larger and halfted, neat sq handle hole, not the simple
forged chisel tips I often find  , probably from a later period of
mining ?? , my family were the first to mine the area in the 1800s and
I now the site  very very well , you may google "fabian quartz" the
gold bearing quartz is named after my grandfather  , I remain
convinced it is indeed an ancient mine , but agree i need more
evidence  so my POV remains just that , do you suggest i stop looking
because I dont yet have the answers to the questions raised by my
observations of the site??
We could debate online forever and solve nothing mate , I may be
wrong , and no harm done , If I am right  my discovery will be about
as famous as my grandfather isnt ,  nobody ever heard of him either ,
its not every bodies cup of tea
Are you into mining , law , or archaeology ??

I am into archaeology, so that's the direction from which I'm coming.

Archaeologically, if the location was as extensive and long-term as
you seem to be suggesting, and if the folks running the mine (as
opposed to those working the mine) were from Europe or the Middle
East, one would expect to see quite a bit of archaeological evidence
of their habitation and activities. It would be clearly different from
that of the Aboriginals.

Even after several thousand years, there should be archaeological
evidence to support your view, in addition to the metal bits you
mention. A competent archaeological field survey of the site, with
test pits and perhaps ground penetrating radar, could help you sort
out the facts of the site's story.

<snip because I don't have time to reply more fully>

[kangarooistan]

.

Post by Tom McDonald

Post by kangarooistan
Are you into mining , law , or archaeology ??

I am into archaeology, so that's the direction from which I'm coming.

Hi TOM


Thanks for any advice you care to offer mate , I dont expect a
lengthy reply , most is offered for background detail , if you wish
to have it

Post by Tom McDonald
Archaeologically, if the location was as extensive and long-term as
you seem to be suggesting, and if the folks running the mine (as
opposed to those working the mine) were from Europe or the Middle
East, one would expect to see quite a bit of archaeological evidence
of their habitation and activities. It would be clearly different from
that of the Aboriginals.

You raise 2 points , This mining activity is vast, but shallow and
very old , it can be detected only by several days on foot examining
the field entirely

Once a mining expert does the foot work he will be left with a gut
feeling the site does contain some anomalies that will haunt him for
years

Answers are hard to come by and every visit will add to his body of
evidence the site is indeed an ancient mine site

Post by Tom McDonald
Even after several thousand years, there should be archaeological
evidence to support your view, in addition to the metal bits you
mention. A competent archaeological field survey of the site, with
test pits and perhaps ground penetrating radar, could help you sort
out the facts of the site's story.
<snip because I don't have time to reply more fully>

I have been searching the site for 50 years several field trips a
year , thousands of hours

I remain convinced the site does contain enough evidence there was
vast mining activity in the area a very very long time ago based on
the geologically disturbed nature

Any one of these anomalies takes an hour on site to look at , and on
their own are explainable with some effort


Combined they build a strong case for a vast ancient open cut mine

BUT still you are 100% right TOM , I need atleas one hard piece of
irrefutable evidence

This " iron tool " may or may not be the key I seek to unlock the door
to the mystery

The " iron tool " may fail to be that key

That will mean my investigation continues , and perhaps Im wrong and
perhaps my sons ,who are themselves very interested in the site from
early childhood , they may seek and find the answers to the questions
this site raises

As you now we must at least look and there are many such unanswered
questions we see as we explore the field , some answers come over
time , but after50 years and having answered every geological puzzle I
ever saw , this site STILL remains as an anomaly to natural laws of
geology , to those with time and patience to spare

I suspect there are thousands of others who are exploring odd sites
seeking answers mate

kanga is one of many with pet projects

Many will never be answered fully , or in out lifetime

Im old now but who knows , the science has improved 10,000% in my life

i see they can now date rust

AMAZING

they can see things we never dreamed possible a few decades ago

I consider the mining activity DID leave behind evidence

In the DNA of the local Aboriginal peoples and their language and the
local insects and plants

I believe the mining stopped over 2000 years ago , and was a minor
mine on the edge of the known world , it had none of the luxury goods
you may find on a similar mine closer to civilization

except a few primitive iron tools perhaps and perhaps some unusual
burial practices perhaps

the site does show signs if you look very close

Like layers of waste rock now re cemented but showing signs of
deposition not normal in nature , but common at a mine site , uneven
mixed layers as each load or ore was worked in batches , with rapid
unexplained changes

With unexplained large amounts of minerals that clearly were not put
thereby nature , several vast piles , possible where secondary
processing was done from nearby quartz reefs stripped down to bedrock
but now with very shallow top soil and odd trees to make it all look
perfectly normal to a passer by or untrained eye
to a casual onlooker it looksperfectly natural
to a trained eye from a great height ,and with detailed knowledgeof
the site underground , the presence of a balanced mine site can be
reconstructed

the source rock the waste tailings dump the waters supply all match
expectaions over a site of about ten sq km

These 3 geological anomolies are not easy to see with a passing
untrained eye

several sq km of bare quartz , next to several mountains of mixed mine
waste , next to a very deep black clay bog that seems to be their
water sourse

This dam as I will call it , is only possible to see by sinking
shafts into its deep black clay and into its surrounding rock to see
its a old man made dam , now completely filled in , positioned to feed
water to the ore processing site a km away

I did this 30 odd years ago , and know it intimately , but it is
presently invisible to an observer , but is evidence that I rely on
for future reference , to sink a shaft took weeks , and I sank several
to see what was happening underground , and I had to buy the property
to do it , I resold it at a profit years ago

There is evidence there TOM

The fact it is so vast it can not bee seen from one day on the site

Nobody is interested in spending a week looking ,to gain enough
insight to , make an informed assessment of the available evidence on
site , less than a week on site is a waste of time and people with
understanding of these things wont spend a week of their valuable time
researching such a claim , until some concrete evidence turns up

then they WILL indeed quickly join the dots and claim their glory

And like my grandpa who found the murnpeowie meteorite and dragged it
out of the desert 100 years ago in 1909 , I will be history , as
the experts crawl all over it
-------------------------------------------------------====

# [PDF]
The metallographic structure of the iron meteorites

; Murnpeowie is a cosmically reheated meteorite of unusual
composition; Kopjes Vlei may have been produced by the ...
www.minersoc.org/pages/Archive-MM/Volume_36/36-284-1139.pdf - Similar
pages -
by HJ AxoN - Cited by 1 - Related articles - All 2 versions
# [PDF]
Murnpeowie (South Australia), a granular type of meteoric iron.
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Murnpeowie sheep run extends for a hundred miles or more, and the spot
where the huge meteorite was found is 53 miles east of
Murnpeowie- ...
www.minersoc.org/pages/Archive-MM/Volume_24/24-148-13.pdf - Similar
pages -
More results from www.minersoc.org »
---------------------------------------------------------
, or his brother who found so called " Kerrs hundred weight" , not
single word of credit will I get either , as you know mate , once the
hard bits are done the experts rush into stake their claim and the
little people get pushed out the way , same all around the world in
all of history
--------------------------------------------------------------
Austexploration
In July 1851, a mass of gold, "Kerr's Hundred Weight" nugget, which
contained about 40 kilograms of gold, was discovered as an outcropping
in quartz on Big ...
www.austexploration.com.au/hargraves.html -
---------------------------------------------------------------

I need , and may one day find a ' key " that helps unlock this site ,
and attract the further research to fully understand the site

There wont be many treasures found , like in Egypt or Iraq or such
ancient places , this mine was at the edge of the universe back then

No pretty pieces to display in museums

Not much GOLD

Not many prizes , and a few people who may feel threatened by the
possibility of disturbing their district , ripping it up , or
attracting hoards of tourists or even local Aboriginals may object to
any challenge to their version of history , or white supremacist who
are happy to think nobody found Australia before them

I may be quite wrong , but I dont think so , I remain convinced the
site is a vast open cut ancient gold mine , that stopped being worked
over 2000 years ago , after hundreds of years of mining activity ,
using primitive methods, and the fact there is no pottery or even no
city or no luxury durable artifacts is no evidence the site is not a
mine

a large mine does not equal a large city or even a town , most miners
usually used tents until more recent years , and those who got rich
enjoyed the luxury far away in their home towns

Ancient mine workers were always very poor

the big picture of the geology suggests it was indeed an open cut
gold mine , hence my ongoing interest

Perhaps the " iron tool " may throw more light on the site

It wont take away he site , and the un answered questions will
remain , unanswered , until some body with vast amounts of time money
and interest does a full examination

You may expect to hear again from the next generation of fabians , Im
the 3rd generation to examine the site and my sons and grandsons are
showing a keen interest too , so who knows , one day we may crack it

we maybe wrong , it is no crime nor harm to be wrong , it is dumb to
ignore those things that stand out as unusual in the field

From such " unusual " things we find the most obscure answers

I suspect you have your own " pet " projects Tom

I dont expect much help , but in time, with some effort , i suspect I
will get the " iron Tool " examined and in time find more answers

Thanks for any advice you care to offer mate , I dont expect a
lengthy reply

I lay out my case you your interest, its not meant to waste your time,
but to fill you in on the back ground

A rock with some iron in it means NOTHING without the background ,
rusty iron tools litter the planet as we all know , but in some cases
they can tell heaps to those who understand the big picture

You WILL in time hear more from this site

Trust me on that Tom

But be patient mate

Thanks for any advice you care to offer mate , I dont expect a
lengthy reply , most is offered for background detail , if you wish
to have it

kanga
=====

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]
[...]

Post by kangarooistan
I found older "tools" on the site , but these are explainable as
meteoric iron , its their number , and consistent size and shape ,
that first alerted me to the possibility the site was as it appears ,
involved in some ancient mining of a vast quartz reef back when
meteorite iron tools were the only ones able to work quartz and hence
the number of chisel tips shaped iron meters underground in areas of
disturbed ground that looks like a very large modern mine in its lay
out ,that was opened up and abandoned in the 1800s as unprofitable
This tool is larger and halfted, neat sq handle hole, not the simple
forged chisel tips I often find , probably from a later period of
mining ?? , my family were the first to mine the area in the 1800s and
I now the site very very well , you may google "fabian quartz" the
gold bearing quartz is named after my grandfather , I remain
convinced it is indeed an ancient mine , but agree i need more
evidence so my POV remains just that , do you suggest i stop looking
because I dont yet have the answers to the questions raised by my
observations of the site??
We could debate online forever and solve nothing mate , I may be
wrong , and no harm done , If I am right my discovery will be about
as famous as my grandfather isnt , nobody ever heard of him either ,
its not every bodies cup of tea
Are you into mining , law , or archaeology ??

So, you have a site where you say mining is known to have been taking place
during the last 100 years or so, and a mine that looks like one from the
19th century, and a collection of discarded iron tools. You are going to
have to produce some pretty convincing evidence to the contrary before
anyone else is going to consider that any of the iron tools or other
things on the site are anything other than what that recent history can
explain.

If you think you've found an iron-rich meteorite, start here
<http://found.meteorites.com.au/>. They fall on Australia as often as on
any other part of the planet, and always have. Whether or not local
people ever get around to using them for anything.

If you want legal advice, consult a local lawyer. If you want
archaeological advice or help, consult local archaeologists. You're just
wasting time and effort otherwise.

Post by kangarooistan
BUT , I bet my balls this iron tool is over 2000 years old

[...]

Ouch. There's a newsgroup about that, too, if you're serious. If you
want medical advice, consult a local doctor.

[kangarooistan]

Post by Whiskers
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]
[...]

Post by kangarooistan
I found older "tools"  on the site ,  but these are explainable as
meteoric iron , its their number ,  and consistent size and shape ,
that first alerted me to the possibility the site was as it appears ,
involved in some ancient mining of a vast quartz reef back when
meteorite iron tools were the only ones able to work quartz and hence
the number of chisel tips shaped  iron  meters underground in areas of
disturbed ground that looks like a very large modern mine in its lay
out ,that was opened up and abandoned in the 1800s as unprofitable
This tool is larger and halfted, neat sq handle hole, not the simple
forged chisel tips I often find  , probably from a later period of
mining ?? , my family were the first to mine the area in the 1800s and
I now the site  very very well , you may google "fabian quartz" the
gold bearing quartz is named after my grandfather  , I remain
convinced it is indeed an ancient mine , but agree i need more
evidence  so my POV remains just that , do you suggest i stop looking
because I dont yet have the answers to the questions raised by my
observations of the site??
We could debate online forever and solve nothing mate , I may be
wrong , and no harm done , If I am right  my discovery will be about
as famous as my grandfather isnt ,  nobody ever heard of him either ,
its not every bodies cup of tea
Are you into mining , law , or archaeology ??

.

Post by Whiskers
So, you have a site where you say mining is known to have been taking place
during the last 100 years or so, and a mine that looks like one from the
19th century, and a collection of discarded iron tools.  You are going to
have to produce some pretty convincing evidence to the contrary before
anyone else is going to consider that any of the iron tools or other
things on the site are anything other than what that recent history can
explain.

Indeed it is easy to see the mining activity of the last 150 years ,
there is the site still there and even photos

Shafts were sunk through what looks like old mine waste in 1850s ,
the walls of these mines contain material that is identical to mine
waste heaps , broken mixed waste rock , littered with iron meteoric
iron shaped chisel tips , down up to 100 feet , begs a few
questions , till now the site could be half explained and no hard
evidence could crack the geological mystery , nature can usually be
explained if you keep looking you can explain all natural geological
formations , this site has for 50 years of my lifenot fit the natural
laws of geology in a number of ways hence my onging interest in this
site

while other sites are easy to understand and explain

it is the unusual we look for when in the field

Finding a halfted iron tool in rock that appears to be very old is
worth further investigation

Post by Whiskers
If you think you've found an iron-rich meteorite, start here
<http://found.meteorites.com.au/>.  They fall on Australia as often as on
any other part of the planet, and always have.  Whether or not local
people ever get around to using them for anything.

Indeed grandpa discovered and retrieved from the desert the world
famous Murnpeowie Meteorite almost exactly 100 years ago mate in
1909 , for many years it sat right at the front door of the South
australian museum
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU291&q=murnpeowie+meteorite&btnG=Search&meta=

They are every where as you say , why so many at this site , why are
they all shaped like chisel tips here and not else where , why are
they found down as far as 100 feet underground level here and not else
where , why are they found in the material that looks like mine waste
and not in nearby un disturbed areas

Im interested to know why so many chisel shaped meteoric iron
artifacts of similar size are found evenly mixed in material up to
100 feet thick on this site , in a fashion that seems quite different
to all other sites ,except mine waste dumps and not other sites

Post by Whiskers
If you want legal advice, consult a local lawyer.  If you want
archaeological advice or help, consult local archaeologists.  You're just
wasting time and effort otherwise.

No mate YOU are wasting YOUR time

Myrewquest was not for your uninfiormed opinion ofsomething you know
little about

Myquestion was , WHO OWNS IT

NOT WHAT IS IT , thats not possible online without actually holding
the specimen , as you will most likely agree , the internet can not do
archaeological examination into the unknown , once the facts are
established the internet is great , but its boots on the ground hands
on field work when working on the unknown,

You are right , its a archaeologist I need , and a legal opinion , and
the internet is the best starting point on most things now days , its
where you start

BUT , I bet my balls this iron tool is over 2000 years old

Post by Whiskers
[...]
Ouch.  There's a newsgroup about that, too, if you're serious.  If you
want medical advice, consult a local doctor.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

Yes I saw my vulnerability once I typed that line

A rusty old tool needs no balls
Yet I remain convinced Im on safe ground mate

I have seen all the evidence and you have not so your position is
perfectly understandable

I am working on this , it was only on wed we collected the specimen
and Thursday morning once it was cleaned we realized what we had

Today we will photograph and weigh it and have it , sited by as many
people as possible so as to stake our claim on the specimen in case
of any future legal challenges over ownership

once its identified it is safer from theft as it may attract amateur
thieves who may think its of some monetary value , I have been robbed
of mineral samplesI treasured but fools who thought theyhad value on
the market

I consider this specimen my most valuable find in 50 years , it has
little if any monetary value , and once photographed its not sale
able by thieves ,

I will have experts examine it in due time

I remain unclear as to ownership laws , still

I understand how these things can be tested in courts at great
expense , and every country has different laws

IF it is of real value Im happy to give it to the most suitable
Museum , once Ive done my research and satisfied my curiosity
I consider this my hobby , its not ever a waste of my time mate , this
one site really has had me scratching my head looking for answers and
there remains after over 50 years only one possibility

a vast mining operation several thousand years ago over many
centuries answers all the questions perfectly

The iron tool is of small value , but may be the key that answers a
vast area of scientific research questions Ihave

My question to the groups remains one of OWNERSHIP / law , not iron
age tools

My thoughts are to preserve it if it is found to be of ancient origin
and an early donation to a suitable museum may protect it , and grant
me access to it for future research that would rapidly follow

Im concerned it may be seized , and lost to me as are source to
further MY RESEARCH , my sons and grandsons are interested in this
same site as they have seen it and it really does beg so many
questions , we dont find in other areas , where the laws of nature can
be observed at work every time ,its possible to read the rocks and
site like it was a book , but on the site in question the only message
is evidence of man / mining , and it is pre european as the 1850s
shafts are sunk straight through the site in question

Legally it may be best to donate the specimen ASAP , with access
rights as needed , and right to take it overseas for identification ,
and some control over the immediate follow on work that will follow ,
or some similar package that suits everybody , my sons would be in
agreement im sure

seems like a reasonable option
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/rssa/

, we all benefit from accessing other peoples research and
discoveries , as i myself have many times enjoyed seeing the treasures
stored in the many beautiful museums stacked with historic
treasures , my iron tool is as nothing, it is what it will prove that
is of interest , probably create a few waves if it is as I suspect ,
evidence of vast gold mining quartz reefs in Australia , several
thousand years ago , over many many centuries

stop laughing

Im not joking

kanga
======

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]

Post by kangarooistan

Post by Whiskers
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]

[...]

Post by kangarooistan
You are right , its a archaeologist I need , and a legal opinion , and
the internet is the best starting point on most things now days , its
where you start

[...]

No, your local phone book will be far more use to you than 'the internet'.

[kangarooistan]

If you found an old rusted iron halfted tool that looked like a type
of small axe blade or more like a knife/ chopper with a hammer
handle

buried on top of what looks like a placenta

, in a layer of sand that has been soaked repeatedly with milk many
times , until the sand is coated in white calcium

, and the entire thing was now petrified into a cemented mass of
cement like stone

WHO would you ask to examine it

My god it looks a bit like Egypt to me , nobody in australia would
know much about this IMHO

kanga
=======

Another way that Taweret was thought to scare away evil that could
hurt a mother and child was through the use of magic. She was
associated with the magic 'wand' or 'knife' that the Egyptians used
because she was a hippopotamus goddess:

Childbirth and early infancy were felt to be particularly threatening
to both mother and baby. Magic played the primary role in countering
these threats; various evil spirits needed to be warned off, and
deities invoked to protect the vulnerable. These magic knives, also
known as apotropaic (that is, acting to ward off evil) wands, were one
of the devices used. They are usually made of hippopotamus ivory, thus
enlisting the support of that fearsome beast against evil.

...

The depictions on this knife encompass a range of protective images.
They include a grotesque dwarf, probably known as Aha at this date,
but later the more famous Bes, and Taweret ... both of whom are
associated with childbirth.

-- Apotropaic Wand, British Museum

Taweret, with the Crocodile on her Back in an Astrological Tomb
Painting Taweret was a household deity, rather than a specific deity
of the pharaoh, and she enjoyed huge popularity with the every day
Egyptian. She wore a low, cylindrical headdress surmounted by two
plumes or sometimes she wore the horns and solar disk of Hathor.
Although her popularity was strongest in later periods, she first
appeared in the Old Kingdom as the mother of the pharaoh, offering to
suckle him with her divine milk.

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taweret.html

Ancient Egyptians believed in duality of the souls - one soul
inhabited the body, the other the placenta. The placenta even had its
own hieroglyph, which looked like a crosscut section of a human
placenta. In royal processions, a high-ranking official would carry a
standard representing the placenta. This standard, or symbol, is
depicted as an organ with two lobes, an umbilical cord, and membranes
folded back.

In certain ancient texts this symbol is even the correct color; dark
brown with touches of red. Entire tombs may have been built to house
the royal placentas of the pharaohs. Neter-Khet of the Third Dynasty
built the step pyramid of Saggara, but his body is interred at Bet
Khallaf. Menkau-Ra of the Fourth Dynasty built Her, the smallest of
the Giza pyramids, yet his body is entombed at Abu-Roash. Some experts
interpret this to mean that the second tomb was created specifically
for the placenta.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Placenta-Rituals-From-Cultures-Around-the-World&id=1636915


The Placenta

The placenta probably held a special significance. There is early
evidence of the royal placenta depicted on an Old Kingdom royal
standard and even earlier. On the Narmer Palette it is probably the
placenta we see depicted as carried on a pole in procession in front
of the king. In the 5th Dynasty, the reliefs in the Sun temple of King
Niuserre show this standard being carried by a priest of Aset, the
mother the Living King in the form of Heru (Horus). These indications
of a 'cult of the royal placenta' in early times seem to stay
associated with the King all throughout Egyptian history.

Among common women, the placenta, as it was thought to be directly
linked to the child´s life, was probably buried either under the
threshold of the house or thrown into the Nile to ensure that the
child survived. Other speculations are that as it was rich in iron, a
piece of it might have been eaten by the mother or even offered the
child.
http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Childbirth.html

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU291&q=+history+placenta+burial+rituals&btnG=Search&meta=

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]

Post by kangarooistan
If you found an old rusted iron halfted tool that looked like a type
of small axe blade or more like a knife/ chopper with a hammer
handle
buried on top of what looks like a placenta
, in a layer of sand that has been soaked repeatedly with milk many
times , until the sand is coated in white calcium
, and the entire thing was now petrified into a cemented mass of
cement like stone
WHO would you ask to examine it
My god it looks a bit like Egypt to me , nobody in australia would
know much about this IMHO
kanga
=======

[...]

I'd think 'limescale; must be a hard water area'. Here in London we have
a constant battle against limescale blocking pipes and wrecking kettles and
boilers. A dripping over-flow pipe can coat a brick wall with a layer of
'stone' in a matter of weeks.

Just how much milk do you suppose was used to flood your site?

Are you proposing that herds of buffalo roamed Australia in the period
thousands of years ago that you propose for your discarded victorian pick?
Are we to expect that African hippos are going to turn up too?

[kangarooistan]

Hi Tom

Thanks for your thoughts mate

Its no something I have ever had to consider and I am planning to send
it with a younger person to Egypt then London France and Iran and
China if possible , to gather more info on the topic , my son who no
doubt will continue the search started 150 years ago by his great
great grandfather on the many un answered questions coming from the
site , this is the best evidence found so far and may actually be the
key to open up many other questions if indeed it is as old as I
suspect

Post by Tom McDonald

If an Australian  found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him ?

Depends on the laws. In the States, it would depend on whether it was
found on public or private land. In Wisconsin, at any rate, any
'navigable waters' (usually water deep enough to float a canoe) is
considered public property, even if it is on private land. In that
case, something found in even seasonally navigable stream beds would
be potentially public property.

 , I image for  legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police
station to confirm   it is clearly discarded long ago ,  and the owner
is long ago dead  ??

See above for other discussion. However, you are probably right that
it was lost or discarded long enough ago to be considered abandoned
property.

  BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron

Why meteoric iron? At 2000 y.a., or even 3000 y.a. as you suggest
below, iron was fairly widely known in Britain, Europe and Egypt. Why
assume, without assay, that your iron bit was meteoric rather than
smelted from more down to earth ore?

say from UK or Europe that was fashioned
in  say Egypt  and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago ,
which is  what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing
about now ,

'

Post by Tom McDonald
A bit, yes.

Yes mate there are kooks , and thats why I wont ever even try and
discuss my POV without doing the ground work

I may indeed be mistaken , but I am not joking

Post by Tom McDonald

but its my time and money  and its no crime to be wrong  ,

Right-o.

YEP

Post by Tom McDonald

its a  crime  IMHO to not investigate what has no other
explanation

If it hasn't been studied, then you can't even begin to say it has 'no
other explanation' than being a bit of anonymous meteoric iron from
the Iron Age that wound up in Oz better than one and one-half
millennia before any known interaction between the West and the little
continent.

Hence my intention to have it tested , were you to hold it you too
would seek more information mate , trust me not to waste my own time
and money without some thought

Post by Tom McDonald

and I  remain confident the facts could and will  be tested and its
not hard
to confirm its a  genuine  iron tool used in mining probably 2500
years ago ,

.

Post by Tom McDonald
Is there any evidence of mining of any type in the region at that time
depth? Or is this part of the conjecture you are building up around
things you've found and thought?

The area was mined in the 1800s , but a careful observation convinces
me that mining activity was in fact reopening an older mine site of
huge proportions even by todays standard

Post by Tom McDonald

as its still stuck as found , in original stone /
cemented gravels ,
Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine

.

Post by Tom McDonald
Anything can be contested. That's why lawyers live in better houses
than you or I do.

Hence my question , I was assuming some basic commonsence things like
declaring it at every airport SHOULD suffice , unless somebody really
wants it and slaps a antiquities order on it , most unlikly asit is
basically a few kg of rock with a very very rusty adze type tool
visible in what is consolidated river gravel type stone , no pretty
and only identifiable by very careful observation by people knowing
some field geology

Post by Tom McDonald

I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate  or forge this specimen so rusted
yet securely  and intimate embedded in the supporting rock that has
formed around it over the years

It shouldn't be difficult to establish location, especially if you and
others have left it in place. A GPS location, a metes-and-bounds
description, some photos establishing the location in a series from
close-ups through increasingly distant shots to some over-all site
shots, along with a detailed written description of the find, the site
and some dates should do it.

The specimen is a few kg in weight of consolidated river gravel of a
type found widely in the area , any competent geologist could locate
its orgin by comparison

Post by Tom McDonald

A examination may possibly  identify the origins of the iron , but
Australian  Aboriginal people had no history of making  iron tools ,
so it clearly came from over seas and the site shows extensive mining
activity that now is confirmed beyond all doubt that somebody had
opened up the site several thousand years ago

Upon what undoubted evidence, exactly, did you establish that mining,
for something Aboriginals wouldn't have used (e.g. not toolstone or
other  material they were known to use) was conducted in the area?

on about 150 years of researching the site over 3 generations with
the 4th and 5th generation already following,

Post by Tom McDonald
And what evidence do you have that the purported mining activity took
place millennia ago? Have you ruled out it being works from the
colonial period or later?

Grandpa sank the first shaft at the site

Post by Tom McDonald
If you are basing your dating on an iron tool being found embedded in
solidified river bed materials, you are putting the cart before the
horse. Find a mining and/or geology expert to tell you what sort of
material you are dealing with, and then conjecture.

School boy geologists know what consolidated river gravel is and how
its made mate , I know what an Adze looks like , both can be tested
further and dated

Post by Tom McDonald

And its design may  help locate its age and manufacturers
geologists could date the age and authenticity of the  sample in
which  it is firmly and intimately  embedded / rusted  in a way that
can not  not be reproduced  in a fraudulent or in fact any other way

Any other way that what? Having been abandoned 2000 years ago? Why not
200 years ago? Or 20 years ago? Without that geologist's investigation
you mention, you can't know.

thats WHY I seek several EXPERTS POV mate

Post by Tom McDonald

Experts could establish if its a fraud or a copy , that may require
the specimen traveling into say UK , US , Egypt , France or China for
only by seeing it can the tool be easily seen and the setting
confirmed as genuine , which may  become legally difficult once its
confirmed to be genuine many people  will become very interested IMHO
Once they confirm its genuine ,

*IF* it is confirmed as genuine, and of the age and material you
suspect it is, that is.

Only I know its not a fraud , I accept your skepticm mate , lets test
it at my expense , sounds fair

Post by Tom McDonald

 and perhaps they have some distant
claim , could they seize it  at the airport once they know its real
and perhaps came originally from Egypt / or China
 , it is likely to be from of  Egyptian  manufacture IMHO , I have
found many other less well preserved specimens before but nothing so
complete still embedded in native stone material, I am   convinced its
worth further investigation with my latest find , but it  most
definitely is stuck in Australian cemented ancient  river  gravel ,
easily  established by experts in arcaeology , , and  that is much
much older than any known European  contact with Australia  , I have
no doubt that in time it will be  sought after if and when it is
further examined ,  the skeptics  will in time  satisfied themselves
once experts have done their work ,  naturally they wont believe an
amateur fossicker , experts tend to  dismiss claims of this nature  as
a dime a dozen ,its my job to establish the evidence is sound and
their job to examine it in due time , if they  choose
I know it is not a fraud and have spent many years seeking
explanations for similar but  less well  identified metal / iron
specimens found on the site , but this one retains enough detail to
actually look still like a iron tool ,  and is still embedded as
found ,  shows signs its been damaged and discarded , well embedded
in the  native cemented gravels that could probably  easily  dated by
most  experts ,
If a person in Australia found an very rusted  ancient iron tool
embedded in ancient cemented river gravel . not of Aboriginal
manufacture , that later proved to be made from meteoric iron mined
in  the UK but made in Egypt 3000 years ago
Who might claim ownership ? I am considering sending it to Egypt for
examination and dont want to get arrested at the airports for
smuggling in or out antiquities , it actually looks like an old rock
of a few kg , to most people , I would  photo / declare it in and out
of every country just to be sure
What rights of intellectually property may the finder claim if the
tool/ rock  was seized by some country  , could i claim ownership of
the  research / science/ location / photos  ???
I have spent many decades searching for this piece of the puzzle that
looked like an ancient large scale gold mine not used for thousands of
years and now have hard verifiable transportable evidence that can
easily be tested

Where is the gold now?

there is still gold there but not enough to cover present costs ,
slave labour may have been cheap back then

Post by Tom McDonald

I suspect this tool may be taken to Egypt , UK ,  France and US  for
experts  on ancient iron tools opinions , and if it is genuine it
belongs in a museum  , an   Australian museum IMHO , but its not made
in Australia , so it may link  to some other museum as well or
instead
commercially it would have little value , even if its genuine .its
simply rusty iron stuck in  cemeted river gravel conglomerate
it is not pretty ,  and only has value  to experts who know its
genuine , 99.9% of people would not even want it in their shed and
museums would not want it on display ,its only  a very few experts
who could see its value to dating  historic mining activity
kanga
======
No point in listing a picture ,

Yes, in fact there is a point to doing so. You are asking us to
comment on something that, were it shown in decent images, with proper
lighting and a proper scale comparison, might be immediately
explicable.

its only with expert actually seeing it that a real opinion could
stand , I could play games online , in time pics may mean more with
experts having confirmed its genuine

Post by Tom McDonald

the real thing that its possible to tell its age or setting in the
cemented gravel material it was found in

When you say 'cemented gravel', what do you mean? Concretions can form
in a very short time, and yet be very durable.

YEP , i can make a cement block in a few days if I wanted to,Nature
operates much slower ,there are places that were worked 150 years ago
that have not cemented , most similar cemented gravels in the area
are aged in millions of years , this is recemented from the older
tertiary cemented river gravel , it is not from the last 150 years
diggings

it predated European mining and the site was not visibly mined in
recent centuries and no legends of ancient mining in the local
Aboriginal stories indicate if it was mined it was indeed a very very
long time ago ,

Phoneticians did conduct shipping mining and iron metallurgy and
served Egypt over many centuries roaming the globe

Interestingly the local Aboriginal place names may indicate the miners
language , and so would the Aboriginal DNA , as the site shows
signs of thousands of miners over hundreds of years to move the
millions of tons of quartz rock involved , so vast most claim there
could not have been so vast a mine at that time in Australia ,big
stuff only happened inn Egypt and China at that time

Think Pyramid size on steroids , it was done in Egypt ,and the wall in
china, PERHAPS brown skinned slaves mined gold in Australia ,
during the time of the Phoenicians pre 2000 years ago when Greeks took
over the seas it seems mining stopped

If they did mine as i predict you would see certain things

they are there , for those who care to look , most dont actually care
and some dont want to upset the present comfortable pro western
model , any glory to non white hits a mental brick wall , nil
funding , and red tape to strangle the research ASAP

Such is the life of those who choose to researching at the cutting
edge


White people are happy to leave history sit as they have recorded it ,
anything outside their version needs PROOF

they simply write books and teach it to their kids with nil facts at
all

Im happy to stick with the facts backed by the evidence that can stand
scrutiny ,

There is evidence, I intend to have it tested , until then it remains
a theory

kanga
======

Post by Tom McDonald

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm
http://images.google.com.au/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:e...

All the above are reasons to show an image of the thing itself.

[s***@neuf.fr]

On Apr 23, 7:26 am, kangarooistan <***@gmail.com> wrote:

You are a True Australia Pioneer, with a pedigree of a long line of
Australia Bush Busters is clearly living you heart ! You have the
inquisitive mind, the courage embark on uncharted tracks & the
superior intelligence to draw conclusion in complete opposition to the
Sheeple ' s consensus
Of course the Country of the Parrots was well known 2000 years ago and
this where the Phoenicians put into port in their way to the Kingdom
of Ophir in South America.

Regarding the tool which you describe, it belongs to you from now on :
You found it, it's yours
If you show it to some of those slack soft belly parasites, they will
rob and call it their find after a very short time indeed !
Anyway, as one of Australia most meritorious gentleman, I give
authority to keep it as you property from now on & further still to
name it "The Fabian Prehistoric Tool"

Can you put a photo of it in line ? ... or contact me through my True
Geology link !

Congratulations anyway, dear Mr Kanga, for being one who bring the
possibility of redemption of the poor Convict Criminals led
country...indeed knowing that you are down under, I have resolved to
return as soon as the 2 Royal Inquiries on the Mining Criminals 'Mass
Swindle & the Howard Gov. ' Mass Murder have been convened

By the way, I believe that the Political Rabble in command at the
present time does not know what to do in face of inexistent Autumn
rains, ,which I have ordered, and the complete drying up of the
Murray !!! I am very sorry for all the innocent but unfortunately this
is the only way those people can understand indeed. I apologize to all
good people down here who suffer as well as to the people of Colorado
& California who suffer same penalty due to the presence of the
Newmont Mining Criminals in their midst !

Congratulations again, Mate, for being equal to your forebears : an
honnest & heart on your hand bloke ! ... and I look forward to meet
you soon at your Mt Barker property !

With kind regards to you Mate, as well as to Tom

Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Founder of the True Geology

[Sunny]

<***@neuf.fr> wrote in message news:4c900251-3d92-4eb3-8520-***@37g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 23, 7:26 am, kangarooistan <***@gmail.com> wrote:
Congratulations again, Mate, for being equal to your forebears : an
honnest & heart on your hand bloke ! ... and I look forward to meet
you soon at your Mt Barker property !

[kangarooistan]

Post by s***@neuf.fr
You are a True Australia Pioneer, with a pedigree of a long line of
Australia Bush Busters is clearly living you heart ! You have the
inquisitive mind, the courage embark on uncharted tracks & the
superior intelligence to draw conclusion in complete opposition to the
Sheeple ' s consensus
Of course the Country of the Parrots was well known 2000 years ago and
this where the Phoenicians put into  port in their way to the Kingdom
of Ophir in South America.
You found it, it's yours
If you show it to some of those slack soft belly parasites, they will
rob and call it their find after a very short time indeed !
Anyway, as one of Australia most meritorious gentleman,  I give
authority to keep it as you property from now on & further still to
name it "The Fabian Prehistoric Tool"

.
.

Post by s***@neuf.fr
Can you put a photo of it in line ? ... or contact me through my True
Geology link !

I can try Sir JPT

not sure if it will work , and I can not show the entire thing yet

I need to keep back somethings to prevent people re creating copies to
cloud the scene , I suspect to find tools identical in time , this
image shows the Sq halfting and the two edges of the blade , both seem
damages

The halfting is torn back , and appears twice as big in this image ,
if you imagine it pushed back down it forms a neat sq halfted handle
hole , the metal body of the blade has a layer of sand on it that
lies between the well marked edges , the tool is shattered across
in , recent mining activity

The river gravel is the local native rock , and the sand visible is
not local and fine materials under it is not normal minerals by fine
material in most unusual ways that I need not discuss online

The tool is dateable and traceable from its most unusual shape ,
possibly a shaving tool , its blade is very thin and most unusual
angles ,

take a careful look at a modern disposable razor

They can date even rust now

i assume the image will come through mate will come through or I will
see if my kids will email one to you , I dont like computers mate

also a few images of shaving , to compare possible reasons for the
odd angles

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/9c8k6m41k4i6/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

Post by s***@neuf.fr
Congratulations anyway, dear Mr Kanga, for being one who bring the
possibility of redemption of the poor Convict Criminals led
country...indeed knowing that you are down under, I have resolved to
return as soon as the 2 Royal Inquiries on the Mining Criminals 'Mass
Swindle & the Howard Gov. ' Mass Murder have been convened
By the way, I believe that the Political  Rabble in command at the
present time does not know what to do in face of inexistent Autumn
rains, ,which I have ordered, and the complete drying up of the
Murray !!! I am very sorry for all the innocent but unfortunately this
is the only way those people can understand indeed. I apologize to all
good people down here who suffer as well as to the people of Colorado
& California who suffer same penalty due to the presence of the
Newmont Mining Criminals in their midst !
Congratulations again, Mate, for being equal to your forebears :  an
honnest & heart on your hand bloke  ! ... and I look forward to meet
you soon at your Mt Barker property !
With kind regards to you Mate, as well as to Tom
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Founder of the True Geology

[kangarooistan]

Post by s***@neuf.fr
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Founder of the True Geology

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/9c8k6m41k4i6/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw
Of some interst Sir JPT

I think the angle of the cutting edge to handle , scraper ? , shaving
comes to mind , , whaling ? chimney sweeps scraper ? , MAY indicate
its original use , may be a specialist tool only in use in specialized
industry or trade that no longer exists

It was not made this a shape by accident , it mayhave been badly bent
before discarded hence the probable damage to the rear of the
haft ,being bent outwards , by visual observation of the specimen on
the far left of the image
http://mail.google.com/mail/h/9c8k6m41k4i6/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

Thus crweating the downward sweeping blade we see in the image ,
although it may also be the way it was made with a most confusing
downward sweeping blade

I call it a blade , as it is very very thin even with rust still
attatched , unsuitable for many uses in mining IMHO , unless in the
final processing stage of smelting or processing the fine material ,
which would fit with where it was found on the vast mine site , very
central , right near , the final processing area when you examine
the entire vast site , waste and mining activity

AND

The specimen indicates an orderly layering not seen in discarded
waste

The lower layer the iron tool and the white sand seem to be in
logical order , for careful burial ?? IMHO , when compared to
surrounding material in the area , the sample shows some order not
seen in the surrounding cemented conglomerate material
http://mail.google.com/mail/h/9c8k6m41k4i6/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw
There are many things happening all around far more important than
this issue mate

So its a low priority thing , for ongoing research in spare time

the wars economy and drought and the now carzy bastards want 50
million dollar grant , to shoot camels

They are crazy mate , camels will be australias biggest rural industry
in 100 years time , and to read that the government may pay 50
million dollars to try and stop 50,000 new jobs from being created ,
is no wonder the country is doomed , they couln not see 50,000 jobs
wandering around in the desert they would not see a vast mine

WHY are we surprised they are going bankrupt mate

Nothing can save they

Thank GOD they will soon collapse and elect intelligent people to run
the country , or advise them

Are all white christians INSANE mate ?

Or just those in Australia

I wont raise other issues in this thread , but am happy you were the
first to receive a copy of our latest find , there is no harm letting
out this image , but no more , forgerys could be constructed if they
get much more detail

Its always better to see and hold rocks that to see pictures , but
its much better than nothing , makes research so much faster

MUST go check out the camels mate

Im working on sending the sample over to Egpt and France too mate

If it takes another 50 years I WILL find another one some where

My son has offered to take it any where , as funds time and
opportunity permit , If it helps identify who made it when where , he
will be thenextgeneration to take over the investigation when I kick
the bucket

There is heaps more stuff that drive our interest in the site , that
others would never understand even if they knew , most real insight
only comes from standing in the fireld for a few weeks , to really
know a site , as you know Sir JPT the more you look the more you find
and most people are simply not interested in even looking , so their
POV is understandably narrow , the 30 second news grab theysaw ,
makes their POV worth more than a lifetimes experience , in their
minds , best let them wake up slowly , they are like babies who choke
if you feed them grown up foods

a picture online means litle , to those who know nothing more than
what they can see in a picture it means nothing at all , the big
picture can only be absorbed slowly through all the senses , on
site , as we all know , when visiting an ancient site , the old
bits and pieces can be viuualized by careful re construction in the
minds eye , thats why tourists visit ancient ruins , they can see what
it was like in their minds eye, far far far better than via tv or
pictures

thats why the tourists pay big money to travel around the world to
look at an ancient site , rather than look at a photo of the ancient
ruins , they prove they can see far more onsite than in pictures

hence my plan to take the speciment to have it examined by experts ,
including your goodself , hopefull in the near future

we need to get the travel arrangement in place and check out security
issues for the people and specimen, so its a long slow process , over
years most likely

no hurry mate

must go find outwhat the bloody hell they are doing wasting 50 million
dollars murdering camels

see ya later mate

kanga
======

ka

kanga
=====

[kangarooistan]

Post by kangarooistan

Post by s***@neuf.fr
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Founder of the True Geology

Of some interst Sir JPT

I think the angle of the cutting edge to handle , scraper ? , shaving
comes to mind ,  , whaling ? chimney sweeps scraper ? ,  MAY indicate
its original use , may be a specialist tool only in use in specialized
industry or trade that no longer exists

It was not made this a shape by accident , it may have been badly
bent before discarded hence the probable  damage to the  rear of the
haft  ,being bent outwards , by visual  observation of the specimen on
the far left of the image
http://mail.google.com/mail/h/8vcl28mesyit/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

Thus creating the downward sweeping blade we see in the image ,
although it may also be the way it was made with a most confusing
downward sweeping blade

I call it a blade , as it is very very thin even with rust still
attached , unsuitable for many uses in mining IMHO , unless in the
final processing stage of smelting or processing the fine material ,
which would fit with where it was found on the vast mine site , very
central , right  near , the final processing area  when you examine
the entire vast site  , waste and mining activity

AND

The specimen indicates an orderly layering not seen in discarded
waste

The lower layer  the iron tool and the white sand seem to be in
logical order , for careful burial ?? IMHO , when compared to
surrounding material in the area , the sample shows some order not
seen in the surrounding  cemented conglomerate material
http://mail.google.com/mail/h/8vcl28mesyit/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw
There are many things happening all around far more important than
this issue mate

So its a low priority thing , for ongoing research in spare time

the wars  economy and drought and the now  carzy bastards want 50
million dollar grant , to shoot camels

They are crazy mate , camels will be Australian biggest rural industry
in 100 years time ,  and to read that the government may pay 50
million dollars to try and stop 50,000 new jobs from being created ,
is no wonder the country is doomed , they could not see 50,000 jobs
wandering around in the desert they would not see a vast mine

WHY are we surprised they are going bankrupt mate

Nothing can save they

Thank GOD they will soon collapse and elect intelligent people to run
the country , or advise them

Are all white christians INSANE mate ?

Or just those in Australia

I wont raise other issues in this thread , but am happy you were the
first to receive a copy of our  latest find , there is no harm letting
out this image , but no more , forgery could be constructed if they
get much more detail

Its always better to see and hold rocks that to see pictures , but
its  much better than nothing , makes research so much faster

MUST go check out the camels mate

Im working on sending the sample over to Egpt and France too mate

If it takes another 50 years I WILL find another one some where

My son has offered to take it any where ,  as funds  time and
opportunity permit , If it helps identify who made it when where , he
will be the next generation to take over the investigation when I
kick the bucket

There is heaps more stuff that drive our interest in the site ,  that
others would never understand even if they knew , most real insight
only comes from standing in the field for a few weeks , to really know
a site  , as you know Sir JPT the more you look the more you find and
most people are simply not interested in even looking , so their POV
is understandably narrow , the 30 second news grab  they saw , makes
their POV worth more than a lifetimes experience , in their minds ,
best let them wake up slowly , they are like babies who choke if you
feed them grown up foods

a picture online means little ,  to those who know nothing more than
what they can see in a picture it means nothing at all , the big
picture can only be absorbed  slowly through  all the senses  , on
site ,  as we all know  ,  when visiting an ancient site  , the old
bits and pieces can be visualized by careful re construction in the
minds eye , that's why tourists visit ancient ruins , they can see
what it was like in their minds eye,  far far far better than via TV
or pictures

that's why the tourists  pay big money to travel around the world to
look at an ancient  site , rather than look at a photo of the ancient
ruins ,  they  prove they can see far more onsite than in pictures

hence my plan to take the specimen to have it examined by experts ,
including your goodself  , hopeful in the near future

we need to get the  travel arrangement in place and check out
security issues for the people and specimen, so its a long slow
process ,  over years most likely

no hurry mate

must go find out what the bloody hell they are doing wasting 50
million dollars murdering camels

see ya later mate

kanga
======

Post by kangarooistan
ka
kanga
=====

[s***@neuf.fr]

On Apr 27, 6:34 am, kangarooistan <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr Kanga,

Sorry for not replying sooner but I was away this week end & return
later than anticipated.
Catching up to it then.
I have read thoroughly the notes from Matt & Tom and your answers. to
same

Somehow I have missed the photo of that item you might have put in
line, did you put it in fact ? .
I am giving you an temporary address where you can reach me :oct1307
(at)neuf.fr

Sure, If your son comes through, he will be warmly welcomed, just as
you would be.
My address is although not available on line is not a secret for
Australian Mining & Political Criminals, so you can have it too, it
will avoid your son trying to find it :
20 Avenue des Guiardes, 17000, La Rochelle France.
Mobile [phone]
I will give you a silent priv. n° by mail.

Regarding that site, I am sure that all elements presented show some
parallel with the Zimbabwe gold operations & the difference in size
was related to the support in which gold was located. As you said,
your Archaeological discovery pre-historic time mine, is centered in
Quartz Blows, and the characteristics of such type of mining is the
fact that they are are of no significant extents. This is due to the
nature of those Pegmatite formations settling as very hot solutions in
huge Intrusive Rocks formation crack or faults. Due to the higher Mohs
scale of hardness some of those quartz blows resist erosion and stand
really out of the environment from a few ft to 30ft towering snaky
things going for mile. So in some like in Souther Cross for example,
over 10 000 ounces of gold ( from memory) , people put fabulous hope
upon the find and then it petered out.
In you site then ( let 's call it the Fabian Old Mine aka FOM ) ,
whatever the technique they had to get down to breaking the gold
bearing rock out of the muck, and again extract the gold out of it. I
am afraid it was done the very hard way but still they had iron tools,
and in this lay the very peculiar anomaly, since they were able to
melt iron ore. They did not need meteorite iron, plenty of iron ore in
Australia and as for the technique some pre-historic smelter was
discovered around Perth, as I remember rightly.

From that angle I can supply you with some patent evidence linking the
Australia FOM to the Zimbabwe gold working, and which is linked to
the very origin of Aborigenes in Australia. I will do this through a
private communication, so none could stripe you of the merit of you
discovery indeed. The great step forward in demonstrating the reality
of the FOM, with all the features you note especially the old black
clay dam indicating sluicing techniques, is the fact that for me it
has clarified NOT the very origin & date of arrival of the early
people in Australia, to which the True Geology has the answer, but the
time when these early settlers where turned into Negroes or
Aborigenes ! Just like in Zimbabwe to make them a very docile slave
populations, extremely easy to breed & maintain at very minimum cost.
A kin of cloning indeed before the word existed ...
I could go on in that line but will leave the rest for private
exchanges.

With best regards

Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Founder of the True Geology

~ Ignorance is the Cosmic Sin, the One Never Forgiven ~

for background info.
True Geology Foundation document :
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/69327

[Sunny]

<***@neuf.fr> wrote in message news:baac7e93-87d2-4bac-8bff-***@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 27, 6:34 am, kangarooistan <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From that angle I can supply you with some patent evidence linking the
Australia FOM to the Zimbabwe gold working, and which is linked to
the very origin of Aborigenes in Australia. I will do this through a
private communication, so none could stripe you of the merit of you
discovery indeed.
----------------------------------------------------

Boofheads of the World ,,,, :-)

[kangarooistan]

On Apr 28, 3:37 pm, "Sunny" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks sunny

i had no idea BHP was making iron tools with ivory handles over 2000
years ago mate
http://mail.google.com/mail/h/rl9d7ax0ns7j/?view=att&th=120e0fd6c757ddc7&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

Thanks for your help mate , can you tell me where they branded them ,
or where their factory was so I can check , thought not

kanga
======

[Eric Stevens]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:26:51 -0700 (PDT), kangarooistan

Post by kangarooistan
If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him ?
, I image for legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police
station to confirm it is clearly discarded long ago , and the owner
is long ago dead ??
BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe that was fashioned
in say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago ,

Meteoric iron fashioned in Egypt is OK. It is known that the ancient
Egyptians did this. But why does the iron have to have come from UK or
Europe, and how could you tell?

Post by kangarooistan
which is what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing
about now , but its my time and money and its no crime to be wrong ,
its a crime IMHO to not investigate what has no other explanation
and I remain confident the facts could and will be tested and its
not hard
to confirm its a genuine iron tool used in mining probably 2500
years ago , as its still stuck as found , in original stone /
cemented gravels ,
Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine
I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate or forge this specimen so rusted
yet securely and intimate embedded in the supporting rock that has
formed around it over the years
A examination may possibly identify the origins of the iron , but
Australian Aboriginal people had no history of making iron tools ,
so it clearly came from over seas and the site shows extensive mining
activity that now is confirmed beyond all doubt that somebody had
opened up the site several thousand years ago
And its design may help locate its age and manufacturers
geologists could date the age and authenticity of the sample in
which it is firmly and intimately embedded / rusted in a way that
can not not be reproduced in a fraudulent or in fact any other way
Experts could establish if its a fraud or a copy , that may require
the specimen traveling into say UK , US , Egypt , France or China for
only by seeing it can the tool be easily seen and the setting
confirmed as genuine , which may become legally difficult once its
confirmed to be genuine many people will become very interested IMHO
Once they confirm its genuine , and perhaps they have some distant
claim , could they seize it at the airport once they know its real
and perhaps came originally from Egypt / or China
, it is likely to be from of Egyptian manufacture IMHO , I have
found many other less well preserved specimens before but nothing so
complete still embedded in native stone material, I am convinced its
worth further investigation with my latest find , but it most
definitely is stuck in Australian cemented ancient river gravel ,
easily established by experts in arcaeology , , and that is much
much older than any known European contact with Australia , I have
no doubt that in time it will be sought after if and when it is
further examined , the skeptics will in time satisfied themselves
once experts have done their work , naturally they wont believe an
amateur fossicker , experts tend to dismiss claims of this nature as
a dime a dozen ,its my job to establish the evidence is sound and
their job to examine it in due time , if they choose
I know it is not a fraud and have spent many years seeking
explanations for similar but less well identified metal / iron
specimens found on the site , but this one retains enough detail to
actually look still like a iron tool , and is still embedded as
found , shows signs its been damaged and discarded , well embedded
in the native cemented gravels that could probably easily dated by
most experts ,
If a person in Australia found an very rusted ancient iron tool
embedded in ancient cemented river gravel . not of Aboriginal
manufacture , that later proved to be made from meteoric iron mined
in the UK but made in Egypt 3000 years ago
Who might claim ownership ? I am considering sending it to Egypt for
examination and dont want to get arrested at the airports for
smuggling in or out antiquities , it actually looks like an old rock
of a few kg , to most people , I would photo / declare it in and out
of every country just to be sure
What rights of intellectually property may the finder claim if the
tool/ rock was seized by some country , could i claim ownership of
the research / science/ location / photos ???
I have spent many decades searching for this piece of the puzzle that
looked like an ancient large scale gold mine not used for thousands of
years and now have hard verifiable transportable evidence that can
easily be tested
I suspect this tool may be taken to Egypt , UK , France and US for
experts on ancient iron tools opinions , and if it is genuine it
belongs in a museum , an Australian museum IMHO , but its not made
in Australia , so it may link to some other museum as well or
instead
commercially it would have little value , even if its genuine .its
simply rusty iron stuck in cemeted river gravel conglomerate
it is not pretty , and only has value to experts who know its
genuine , 99.9% of people would not even want it in their shed and
museums would not want it on display ,its only a very few experts
who could see its value to dating historic mining activity
kanga
======
No point in listing a picture , its only with expert actually seeing
the real thing that its possible to tell its age or setting in the
cemented gravel material it was found in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/tools.htm
http://images.google.com.au/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=ancient%20iron%20tools&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Eric Stevens

[Epsilon]

Post by Eric Stevens
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:26:51 -0700 (PDT), kangarooistan

Post by kangarooistan
If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him ?
, I image for legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police
station to confirm it is clearly discarded long ago , and the
owner is long ago dead ??
BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe that was fashioned
in say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago ,

Meteoric iron fashioned in Egypt is OK. It is known that the ancient
Egyptians did this. But why does the iron have to have come from UK or
Europe, and how could you tell?

It is well-known that all meteoric iron has "Made in ...:. The place of
manufacture is invariably stamped on it in a discrete location.

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]

Post by Epsilon

Post by Eric Stevens
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:26:51 -0700 (PDT), kangarooistan

Post by kangarooistan
If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him ?
, I image for legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police
station to confirm it is clearly discarded long ago , and the
owner is long ago dead ??
BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe that was fashioned
in say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago ,

Meteoric iron fashioned in Egypt is OK. It is known that the ancient
Egyptians did this. But why does the iron have to have come from UK or
Europe, and how could you tell?

It is well-known that all meteoric iron has "Made in ...:. The place of
manufacture is invariably stamped on it in a discrete location.

[Hey, let's keep the fun where it started!]

I was thinking it must be the accent or something; British meteors would be
stand-offish, German meteors would be first to bag the deck-chairs, Italian
meteors would be passionate, and Egyptian meteors would try to sell you a
camel. Or something like that.

[kangarooistan]

Post by Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens

Hi Eric

im not sure where the iron came from , but i suspect this tool was
not made in australia

I have for many years found iron chisel tips deep within a huge heap
of mine waste that appear to be crude forged iron , up to 100 feet
under ground , in numbers not observed in other sites
Over many decades I assumed they were possibly evidence of ancient
mining activity that pre dates the more recent activity of since 1850s

This latest find is a hafted tool of more recent disturbed but re
consolidated river gravels with a number of inclusions including the
iron tool as well as other items of animal . vegetable origins that
have been petrified , ie turned into stone , but retain their original
details
=============================================================
i did in my OP say ,HYPOTHETICALLY , could the UK or Europe or Egypt
claim ownership IF they could prove , say that they had some distant
connection

I assume the iron could be identified with a region or the design or
manufacture method COULD possibly end up contested at great cost if
the specimen was taken to say UK or Europe or Egypt
============================================================
I am shy of Australian experts , from past experiences over several
generations its dog eat dog once miners smell money they will do all
manner of crap to out maneuver you in the courts over ownership

If you google Fabian quartzite , you will see the family name
connected to gold / quartz mining for well over 100 years in the
published literature , though we rarely engage in the actual mining
activity we have long history of field work in the state in this area
of the world , search , fabian quartzite when you have a few weeks
spare
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=xku&q=fabian+quartzite&btnG=Search&meta=

I do intent to have it examined by experts on iron tools , in due time
so its not much gain debating its merits yet

I need to better understand the legal crap so as to not leave me or my
sons embarrassed and stuck in courts overseas , or start a rush of
treasure hunters on the site in Australia , its value is purely
scientific IMHO , there is only traces of easily won gold at the
site , and treasure hunters ripping away at anything would not
actually help them or me

There is nil demand for rusty old bits of iron , and the cost of
authenticating it will be huge

My opinion seems to be that if it is an ancient iron tool , the laws
of movable cultural heritage would apply in australia , , ONCE it is
confirmed as genuine , and pre European settlement

This may actually give me the security I seek , once registered the
over seas people could less easily lodge a claim based on where it was
made or where the iron was mined or where the miners came from

AND i could donate it to a museum , with access as and if required ,
for my further research of the site

Problem solved ????? , I think ????

Gift the specimen to this mob
Royal Society of South Australia Inc.

, and/ or register it as a movable cultural heritage
The Protection of Movable Cultural Heritage Act 1986

, seems to give me exactly what I seek , and lets me continue the
further research in peace , I do fear losing what I only dreamed of
finding for 50 years , and a field trip or two every year , on top of
endless ridicule by people who seem to know Im wrong without even
visiting the site once , they read lots of books that ALL say vast
gold mining only started with European settlement in 1850s

Thats their PROOF I must be crazy

I may be wrong , I may be crazy , The sample / specimen / evidence ,
is all that matters , and it must be tested by experts , what I or
others or books think or say or want , is of no concern

BUT it is a greater wrong to not seek answers , based on what books
say if the evidence clashes with mainstream opinion , TEST it

kanga
======
This mob is very good at recording local historic material

Royal Society of South Australia Inc.
-
The Royal Society of South Australia is a Learned Society whose
interest is in Science, particularly, but not only, of South
Australia. ...
www.adelaide.edu.au/rssa/ - 16k - Cached - Similar pages -

http://www.google.com.au/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=+australian+movable+cultural+heritage&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

#
Movable cultural heritage may be the laws that would apply IF ITS
GENUINE
The Protection of Movable Cultural Heritage Act 1986 (PMCH Act)
protects Australia's heritage of movable cultural objects and supports
foreign countries' ...
www.arts.gov.au/movable - 16k - Cached - Similar pages -
#
Movable cultural heritage – the role of Expert Examiners
9 Apr 2009 ... When the National Cultural Heritage Committee receives
an application for an export permit under the Protection of Movable
Cultural Heritage ...
www.arts.gov.au/movable/expert-examiners - 15k - Cached - Similar
pages -
More results from www.arts.gov.au »
#
CJO - Abstract - The Protection of Australia's Movable Cultural ...
4 Jun 2007 ... The Protection of Australia's Movable Cultural
Heritage. International Journal of Cultural Property, 4 , pp
215-240 ...
journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S0940739195000294 - Similar pages -
by HH Jamieson - 2007
#
National Conservation & Preservation Policy for Movable Cultural ...
Movable cultural heritage is an important element in the lives of all
Australians. It is evidence of the cultural richness and diversity of
Australian ...
www.nla.gov.au/preserve/cult.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages -

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]

Post by kangarooistan

Post by Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens

Hi Eric
im not sure where the iron came from , but i suspect this tool was
not made in australia

Possibly England or Wales - although I'm sure there were iron-workers in
Australia almost as soon as there were European settlers.

[...]

[Matt Giwer]

Post by kangarooistan
If an Australian found an old rusted broken iron tool set firmly in
cemented river gravel , it would IMHO belong to him , I image for
legal reasons it may pay to present it at a police station to confirm
it is clearly discarded long ago , and the owner is long ago dead ??

You don't sound completely crankish. Where are you going with this?

Post by kangarooistan
BUT Hypothetically , if in researching the origins it turned out to
be made from meteoric iron say from UK or Europe

No. Meteors are from space.

Post by kangarooistan
that was fashioned in
say Egypt and lost / discarded in Australia 2000 years ago,

And I found a coin fashioned in Canada. It is still mine.

Post by kangarooistan
which is
what I suspect may be the case , granted you may be laughing about
now , but its my time and money and its no crime to be wrong , its a
crime IMHO to not investigate what has no other explanation and I
remain confident the facts could and will be tested and its not hard
to confirm its genuine as its still stuck as found in original stone /
cemented gravels
Could ownership be contested , if / when its found to be genuine

Ownership can only be contested if the owner comes forward and establishes
his claim of ownership. Your scenario makes that impossible.

As for antiquities, consult Australian law. It varies from very unlikely to
nearly impossible Australia would have a law that could cover what you
describe. It would have a law governing Abo artifacts but not this.

Post by kangarooistan
I assume I can and need to establish where it was found , not
difficult as it is well embedded in the native cemented river gravels
that could easily locate its exact location of discovery , in
Australia , nobody could recreate or forge this specimen

Once taken out of context it does not matter all that much were it was found.

Post by kangarooistan
A examination may possibly identify the origins of the iron , but
Aboriginal people had no history of making iron tools
And its design may locate its age and manufacturers
geologists could date the age and authenicity of the sample in which
it is firmly and intimately imbedded / rusted in a way that can not
not be reproduced in a fraudulent or in fact any other way

Can't date it.

Post by kangarooistan
Experts could establish if its a fraud or a copy , that may require
the specimen traveling into say UK , US , Egypt , France , which may
become legally difficult once its confirmed to be genuine many people
will become interested IMHO

From your description it is unclear what it could be identified as.
Therefore there is no place to send it.

Post by kangarooistan
Once they confirm its genuine , and perhaps they have some distant
claim , could they seize it >>

By current law and international agreement only the nation in which it was
found has the ability to make a claim to it. Therefore it has to revert to the
nation in which it was found. After than it depends upon the laws of that
country.

Post by kangarooistan
, it is likely to be from of Egyptian manufacture IMHO , I have
found many other less well preserved specimens before and am not
convinced its worth further investigation with my latest find , but it
most definitely is stuck in Australian cemented gravel , easily
established , and that is much much older than any known European
contact with Australia , I have no doubt that in time it will be
sought after if and when it is further examined , and the skeptics
have satisfied themselves once experts have done their work ,
naturally they wont believe an amateur fossicker , experts tend to
dismiss claims of this nature as a dime a dozen ,its my job to
establish the evidence and their job to examine it in due time if they
choose

That does sound a bit like Ed Conrad talk. Careful.

Post by kangarooistan
I know it is not a fraud and have spent many years seeking
explanations for similar but less well identified metal / iron
specimens found on the site , but this one retains enough detail to
actually look still like a iron tool , and is still embedded as
found , shows signs its been damaged and discarded , well embedded
in the native cemented gravels that could probably be dated by most
experts ,
If a person in Australia found an very rusted ancient iron tool
embedded in ancient cemented river gravel . not of Aboriginal
manufacture , that later proved to be made from meteoric iron mined in
the UK but made in Egypt 3000yeas ago
Who might claim ownership ? I am considering sending it to Egypt for
examination and dont want to get arrested at the airports for
smuggling in or out antiquities , it actually looks like an old rock
of a few kg , to most people , I would photo / declare it in and out
of every country just to be sure
What rights of intellectually property may the finder claim if the
tool/ rock was seized by somebody , could i claim ownership of the
research / science/ location / photos ???
I suspect this tool may be taken to Egypt , UK , France and US for
experts opinion , and if it is genuine belongs in a museum , an
Australian museum IMHO , but its not made in Australia so it may link
to some other museum as well
commercially it would have little value even if its genuine .its
simply rusty iron stuck in river gravel
it is not pretty , and only has value to experts who know its
genuine , 99.9% of people would not even want it in their shed and
museums would not want it on display as its only a very few experts
who could see its value to dating historic mining activity

If you are really concerned about it being in an Australian museum and not
out to get rich with it then take it to an Australian museum and see what they
make of it. If they make nothing of it you have a rusted piece of iron no
matter how "authentic" it might be.

[kangarooistan]

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU291&q=+history+placenta+burial+rituals&btnG=Search&meta=

The thought of why an ancient person would discard an iron tool raises
a few more questions

Is there any ancient cultures that buried the placenta in white sand
and placed an iron tool on top and buried the lot

If so perhaps the sample I have is worth looking at in that light

There are a number of things in the specimen that fit perfectly with
this possibility

Are there any online sites dealing with ancient placental burial
rituals in ancient cultures

As the specimen is petrified , the recent history is of no
interest , and the inclusion of a valuable iron tool , in a remote
isolated mining site may indicate an upper class member of the outfit
perhaps , there are very few artifacts as seen in european digs, no
pottery ,not surprising if it was mined by slaves or poor people ,
gold would have been the real purpose of the remote site at the far
ends of the earth

Although petrified and contained in a layer of white sand , it is
possible to identify something that IS buried under the iron tool in
white sand , that is then recemented into rivergravel conglomerate

it is petrified , and reminerlized , but in the dry climate easily
seen as not a natural mineral shape , its possible to see quite
well marked internal structure where it is damaged , its of animal or
vegetable matter completely petrified , and in remarkable
condition , that may be identifiable by close visual examination
with the naked eye , without even slicing it up

all i did was scrub it with a nylon brush and water

the iron tool may indicate a non aboriginal origin , IMHO , local
Aboriginals had no interest in gold or iron tools pre European
settlement , and the burial practices of the local Native peoples was
some short distance away at a well known sacred site , little
interest in the area is identified by present day native peoples

it may not be placental , but thats what it looks like 2 me , granted
its far from certain and if it is several more questions are raised

Do you know of online links to ANCIENT cultures who practiced this
type of ritual

kanga
======

[Matt Giwer]

Post by kangarooistan
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU291&q=+history+placenta+burial+rituals&btnG=Search&meta=
The thought of why an ancient person would discard an iron tool raises
a few more questions

In fact the first question is raises is why it was discarded. In pre-modern
times with blacksmiths and labor intensive production methods tools were never
discarded. A 2" wide knife would be continually sharpened over years until it
was down to a 1/2" fish fileting knife and when that got too small returned
the the blacksmith for a discount on a new 2" knife.

So you are talking lost not discarded.

Post by kangarooistan
Is there any ancient cultures that buried the placenta in white sand
and placed an iron tool on top and buried the lot

Placenta as in afterbirth? Sorry but iron tools have to be very cheap to
develop such a custom.

Post by kangarooistan
If so perhaps the sample I have is worth looking at in that light
There are a number of things in the specimen that fit perfectly with
this possibility
Are there any online sites dealing with ancient placental burial
rituals in ancient cultures

But the cost of an iron tool does not fit. A copper tool maybe.

Post by kangarooistan
As the specimen is petrified , the recent history is of no
interest , and the inclusion of a valuable iron tool , in a remote
isolated mining site may indicate an upper class member of the outfit
perhaps , there are very few artifacts as seen in european digs, no
pottery ,not surprising if it was mined by slaves or poor people ,
gold would have been the real purpose of the remote site at the far
ends of the earth

But if you are talking concreted gravel that means such a burial was near the
banks of a river. It is not clear why any iron would have survived given any
reasonable time it was underwater.

So far as I am aware gold and iron are NOT found together such that you could
call iron an added value of gold mining much as silver is an added value of
gold mining.

Post by kangarooistan
Although petrified and contained in a layer of white sand , it is
possible to identify something that IS buried under the iron tool in
white sand , that is then recemented into rivergravel conglomerate

Your use of petrified has to be explained. I can make no sense of the term as
you use it. Petrified means organic material replaced by stone due to a slow
process involving water soluble stone.

Post by kangarooistan
it is petrified , and reminerlized , but in the dry climate easily
seen as not a natural mineral shape , its possible to see quite
well marked internal structure where it is damaged , its of animal or
vegetable matter completely petrified , and in remarkable
condition , that may be identifiable by close visual examination
with the naked eye , without even slicing it up
all i did was scrub it with a nylon brush and water
the iron tool may indicate a non aboriginal origin , IMHO , local
Aboriginals had no interest in gold or iron tools pre European
settlement , and the burial practices of the local Native peoples was
some short distance away at a well known sacred site , little
interest in the area is identified by present day native peoples
it may not be placental , but thats what it looks like 2 me , granted
its far from certain and if it is several more questions are raised
Do you know of online links to ANCIENT cultures who practiced this
type of ritual

[kangarooistan]

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU2...
The thought of why an ancient person would discard an iron tool raises
a few more questions

        In fact the first question is raises is why it was discarded. In pre-modern
times with blacksmiths and labor intensive production methods tools were never
discarded. A 2" wide knife would be continually sharpened over years until it
was down to a 1/2" fish fileting knife and when that got too small returned
the the blacksmith for a discount on a new 2" knife.

.

        So you are talking lost not discarded.

Hi Matt

Yes mate I know , even 100 years ago iron tools where repaired until
they wore out

To lose an iron tool centuries ago seems very odd

Is there any ancient cultures that buried the placenta in white sand
and placed an iron tool on top and buried the lot

        Placenta as in afterbirth? Sorry but iron tools have to be very cheap to
develop such a custom.

They buries people with gold in many cultures , and weapons in other
cultures , perhaps the tool lay around for centuries to be buried by
local native woman who did not understand its value ??

It seems odd to find an iron tool on white sand , on something that
resembles a petrified placenta , cemented into a conglomerate of river
gravel in outback Australia , thats WHY I am inquiring as to its
meaning , it has a number of things that catch the eye of a rock hound
fossicking around ,there aint no real hurry, it can wait , Im going to
send it to France and Egypt , they are the experts , and having
nothing to gain can tell it as they see it

I may be reading too much into it , although I try not to , others may
read to little into it , out of EGO defense , being unwilling to admit
they FAILED to notice the bleeding obvious for so long

Once the size of the mining activity is pointed out , they will be
embarrassed indeed if Im proven right , but to be fair I need
something to tie it all together ,the geology suggests an ancient
mining region , there are several vast waste dumps of millions of
tons , that were tested in the 1800s with shafts dug to
bedrock ,THROUGH what are IMHO waste dumps from the nearby apparent
"open cut quartz reef mines"

This is several steps too faryet

BACK to the Iron tool I think , and work from there a step at a time


Who knows mate , give it time and we shall both see more clearly

If so perhaps the sample I have is worth looking at in that light
There are a number of things in the specimen that fit perfectly with
this possibility
Are there any online sites dealing with ancient placental burial
rituals in ancient cultures

        But the cost of an iron tool does not fit. A copper tool maybe.

seen nil evidence of any copper at the site ever , no pottery either ,
but evidence of massive mining effort a very long time ago can be
picked out by an observant eye , one day people will wonder WHY it was
not noticed before

mainly because it is so vast , millions of tons of hard rock mined
long before Europeans came

As the specimen  is petrified  , the recent history is of no
interest , and the inclusion of a valuable iron tool , in a remote
isolated mining site may indicate an upper class member of the outfit
perhaps , there are very few artifacts as seen in european digs, no
pottery ,not surprising if it was mined by slaves or poor people ,
gold would have been the real purpose of the remote site  at the far
ends of the earth

        But if you are talking concreted gravel that means such a burial was near the
banks of a river. It is not clear why any iron would have survived given any
reasonable time it was underwater.

River gravel uplifted eons before , is no where near rivers today

This river gravel / ancient river can be traced up hill and down , its
millions of years since it ran as a river , the material is classed as
a million plus years old but the sample I refer to was dug out of the
original cemented gravels and has re set and is visibly younger

        So far as I am aware gold and iron are NOT found together such that you could
call iron an added value of gold mining much as silver is an added value of
gold mining.

Iron in Quartz is good gold country in Australia ,mind you both are
small proportions , Iron ore mines are quite separate beasts

One of the signs you look for is quartz with iron , and an ancient
river to concentrate the gold , all of which are present

Although petrified and contained in a layer of white sand , it is
possible to identify something that IS  buried under the iron tool in
white sand ,  that is then recemented into rivergravel conglomerate

        Your use of petrified has to be explained. I can make no sense of the term as
you use it. Petrified means organic material replaced by stone due to a slow
process involving water soluble stone.

EXACTLY right mate

Organic material that has been replaced by minerals

there is something within the layer of white sand that has the
appearance of a placenta , it is petrified , STONE , it is possible
to see the walls and the contents as distinctly seperate layers of
the "placenta" where it has been broken away

, it was at one time something organic , the contents are quite
different to the surrounding sand , and he surrounding river gravel ,
all of which are now STONE , except the rusty iron tool

Several different materials with distinct borders , all now
mineralized entirely , but clearly either plant or animal originally ,
with an iron tool placed on top

POSSIBLY a burial ritual , but Im only guessing , as you say matt

WHY discard an iron tool , at one time a priceless item , but they did
bury people with swords at the time

The contents of the so called " placenta " are quite different to look
at , unlike anything else in the area and may be a clue once examined

its still too early , only 3 days ago we found it

I prefer dealing with non australians to avoid bias , 99% of

Aussies simply quote what they learnedat school

there was NOTHING here before 1778so it can not be man made

end of debate

French and Egyptians would be my preference , the Egyptians are
experts

Id LOVE to have it checked without telling them WHERE it was found

It can be re located by testing the minerals , Im willing to pay for
the tests ,only I and my sons know its genuine and will stand up under
any scrutiny , Exactly what it is is really puzzling even to me , its
best we ask a few real experts who may have seen this stuff many times


THEN tell them where it was found

IF it was found in Egypt or China nobody would doubt its a possibility

BUT as it was found in Australia it MUST be a fraud

IT SAYS SO IN ALL THE BOOKS and the books over rule the evidence in
the minds of white people

NOBODY was here before 1788 but nomadic natives , and they are happy
to leave it at that

Granted mate , its best we await a few experts , we can only guess at
possibilities until it goes under the microscope of people with
experience and an open mind

it will take months to take it to them , they wont come to it

kanga
======
it is petrified , and reminerlized ,   but in the dry climate easily
seen as not a natural  mineral  shape  ,
its possible to see quite
well marked internal structure where it is damaged , its of animal or
vegetable matter  completely petrified , and in remarkable condition ,
 that may be identifiable by close visual  examination with the naked
eye , without even slicing it up
all i did was scrub it with a nylon brush and water

the iron tool may indicate a non aboriginal origin , IMHO , local
Aboriginals had no interest in gold or iron tools pre European
settlement , and the burial practices of the local Native peoples was
some short distance away at a well known sacred site ,  little
interest in the area is identified by present day native peoples
it may not be placental , but thats what it looks like 2 me , granted
its far from certain and if it is several more questions are raised
Do you know of online links to ANCIENT cultures who practiced this
type of ritual

--
Ethic cleansing is a crime for everyone but the Jews.
        -- The Iron Webmaster, 4137
 http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/Antisemitism a10
Fri Apr 24 07:45:30 EDT 2009

[Matt Giwer]

Post by kangarooistan

Post by Matt Giwer

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU2...
The thought of why an ancient person would discard an iron tool raises
a few more questions

In fact the first question is raises is why it was discarded. In pre-modern
times with blacksmiths and labor intensive production methods tools were never
discarded. A 2" wide knife would be continually sharpened over years until it
was down to a 1/2" fish fileting knife and when that got too small returned
the the blacksmith for a discount on a new 2" knife.

..

Post by Matt Giwer
So you are talking lost not discarded.

Hi Matt
Yes mate I know , even 100 years ago iron tools where repaired until
they wore out
To lose an iron tool centuries ago seems very odd

Post by Matt Giwer

Is there any ancient cultures that buried the placenta in white sand
and placed an iron tool on top and buried the lot

Placenta as in afterbirth? Sorry but iron tools have to be very cheap to
develop such a custom.

They buries people with gold in many cultures , and weapons in other
cultures , perhaps the tool lay around for centuries to be buried by
local native woman who did not understand its value ??

Yes rich people and it was their gold. Yes people were often buried with
their tools which they used in life. An afterbirth is not quite the same thing.

The idea of iron "laying around for centuries" does not make much sense
either. Rust does wonders even in the desert.

Post by kangarooistan
It seems odd to find an iron tool on white sand , on something that
resembles a petrified placenta , cemented into a conglomerate of river
gravel in outback Australia , thats WHY I am inquiring as to its
meaning , it has a number of things that catch the eye of a rock hound
fossicking around ,there aint no real hurry, it can wait , Im going to
send it to France and Egypt , they are the experts , and having
nothing to gain can tell it as they see it
I may be reading too much into it , although I try not to , others may
read to little into it , out of EGO defense , being unwilling to admit
they FAILED to notice the bleeding obvious for so long

One out of place object means nothing. Perhaps that is an over reaction but
it comes from finding one off bible artifacts, Piltdown Man, and sacred relics
produced by local craftsmen.

Post by kangarooistan
Once the size of the mining activity is pointed out , they will be
embarrassed indeed if Im proven right , but to be fair I need
something to tie it all together ,the geology suggests an ancient
mining region , there are several vast waste dumps of millions of
tons , that were tested in the 1800s with shafts dug to
bedrock ,THROUGH what are IMHO waste dumps from the nearby apparent
"open cut quartz reef mines"
This is several steps too faryet
BACK to the Iron tool I think , and work from there a step at a time

As I said earlier, mining is something that would leave all kinds of human
artifacts simply from what is normally lost and thrown away when broken.
Simply finding something that appears similar to a mining operation is not
conclusive. If people really did mine this area then there are trash middens
with all kinds of waste in them. Find one of those and your case is iron clad.
You will find animal bones with human teeth marks, pottery that was broken
before discarded, all kinds of human garbage.

Post by kangarooistan
Who knows mate , give it time and we shall both see more clearly

Post by Matt Giwer

If so perhaps the sample I have is worth looking at in that light
There are a number of things in the specimen that fit perfectly with
this possibility
Are there any online sites dealing with ancient placental burial
rituals in ancient cultures

But the cost of an iron tool does not fit. A copper tool maybe.

seen nil evidence of any copper at the site ever , no pottery either ,
but evidence of massive mining effort a very long time ago can be
picked out by an observant eye , one day people will wonder WHY it was
not noticed before
mainly because it is so vast , millions of tons of hard rock mined
long before Europeans came

The absence of trash is a serious problem. People cannot live with created
lots of it. And if millions of tons were moved by people that is a lot of
people for a long time. There has to be trash there and lots of it. There has
to be graffiti there. People leave their marks everywhere. There also has to
be a seaport that carried away whatever they were digging and bringing them
the luxuries from home. There you would also find signs of fishing.

And they would bring livestock from home for them to raise and eat. That I
think is the greatest thing against the idea of mining. They would have
brought mammals and some would have escaped and gone wild. Yet there were none
in Australia. The same applies to wheat, barley and any other foods that could
be raised locally.

I think the odds are very much against this being what you think it is. There
has to be a human context for this item that fits your hypothesis.

Post by kangarooistan

Post by Matt Giwer

As the specimen is petrified , the recent history is of no
interest , and the inclusion of a valuable iron tool , in a remote
isolated mining site may indicate an upper class member of the outfit
perhaps , there are very few artifacts as seen in european digs, no
pottery ,not surprising if it was mined by slaves or poor people ,
gold would have been the real purpose of the remote site at the far
ends of the earth

But if you are talking concreted gravel that means such a burial was near the
banks of a river. It is not clear why any iron would have survived given any
reasonable time it was underwater.

River gravel uplifted eons before , is no where near rivers today
This river gravel / ancient river can be traced up hill and down , its
millions of years since it ran as a river , the material is classed as
a million plus years old but the sample I refer to was dug out of the
original cemented gravels and has re set and is visibly younger

Post by Matt Giwer
So far as I am aware gold and iron are NOT found together such that you could
call iron an added value of gold mining much as silver is an added value of
gold mining.

Iron in Quartz is good gold country in Australia ,mind you both are
small proportions , Iron ore mines are quite separate beasts
One of the signs you look for is quartz with iron , and an ancient
river to concentrate the gold , all of which are present

Post by Matt Giwer

Although petrified and contained in a layer of white sand , it is
possible to identify something that IS buried under the iron tool in
white sand , that is then recemented into rivergravel conglomerate

Your use of petrified has to be explained. I can make no sense of the term as
you use it. Petrified means organic material replaced by stone due to a slow
process involving water soluble stone.

EXACTLY right mate
Organic material that has been replaced by minerals

And you are aware how extremely rare it is for soft tissue to fossilize?

Post by kangarooistan
there is something within the layer of white sand that has the
appearance of a placenta , it is petrified , STONE , it is possible
to see the walls and the contents as distinctly seperate layers of
the "placenta" where it has been broken away
, it was at one time something organic , the contents are quite
different to the surrounding sand , and he surrounding river gravel ,
all of which are now STONE , except the rusty iron tool
Several different materials with distinct borders , all now
mineralized entirely , but clearly either plant or animal originally ,
with an iron tool placed on top
POSSIBLY a burial ritual , but Im only guessing , as you say matt
WHY discard an iron tool , at one time a priceless item , but they did
bury people with swords at the time
The contents of the so called " placenta " are quite different to look
at , unlike anything else in the area and may be a clue once examined
its still too early , only 3 days ago we found it
I prefer dealing with non australians to avoid bias , 99% of
Aussies simply quote what they learnedat school
there was NOTHING here before 1778so it can not be man made
end of debate
French and Egyptians would be my preference , the Egyptians are
experts

It is unclear what specialization you think anyone might have.

Post by kangarooistan
Id LOVE to have it checked without telling them WHERE it was found
It can be re located by testing the minerals , Im willing to pay for
the tests ,only I and my sons know its genuine and will stand up under
any scrutiny , Exactly what it is is really puzzling even to me , its
best we ask a few real experts who may have seen this stuff many times

As to having seen the thing before the web and a decent university library
are as good as any sources before spending the money. But I would also be
looking at 18th c. European items before jumping to conclusions. Seriously. I
came across one article on a perfectly preserved set of whatevers used by some
noble woman a mere three centuries ago. It was associated with what we would
describe as her cosmetic and normal "beauty" table. No one has any idea what
over half the items might have been used for.

Post by kangarooistan
THEN tell them where it was found
IF it was found in Egypt or China nobody would doubt its a possibility
BUT as it was found in Australia it MUST be a fraud
IT SAYS SO IN ALL THE BOOKS and the books over rule the evidence in
the minds of white people
NOBODY was here before 1788 but nomadic natives , and they are happy
to leave it at that
Granted mate , its best we await a few experts , we can only guess at
possibilities until it goes under the microscope of people with
experience and an open mind
it will take months to take it to them , they wont come to it

I have no problem with any aboriginal culture being more than we think it
was. Almost every year something unexpected is discovered about Amerind
culture which makes it more advanced than we thought. But these "advanced"
things are found within a context of a moderately advanced culture in itself.
You have one advanced thing in the middle of no where.

Do yourself a favor and do not become too attached to the idea this is
something more than the evidence can support.

[kangarooistan]

        Yes rich people and it was their gold. Yes people were often buried with
their tools which they used in life. An afterbirth is not quite the same thing.

Hi Matt

In some ancient cultures the placenta was seen as a twin or older
brother , google placenta rituals

Indeed the buried placenta was fed and given medicine if the child
became ill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placenta#Cultural_practices_and_beliefs

In Egypt the pharaohs placenta had its own burial chamber

        The idea of iron "laying around for centuries" does not make much sense
either. Rust does wonders even in the desert.

google ancient iron tools Matt , thousands survive that are over 2000
years old
http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=ancient%20iron%20tools&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU291AU291&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

It seems odd to find an iron tool on  white sand , on something that
resembles a petrified placenta , cemented into a conglomerate of river
gravel in outback Australia , thats WHY I am inquiring as to its
meaning , it has a number of things that catch the eye of a rock hound
fossicking around ,there aint no real hurry, it can wait , Im going to
send it to France and Egypt , they are the experts , and having
nothing to gain can tell it as they see it
I may be reading too much into it , although I try not to , others may
read to little into it , out of EGO defense , being unwilling to admit
they FAILED to notice the bleeding obvious for so long

        One out of place object means nothing. Perhaps that is an over reaction but
it comes from finding one off bible artifacts, Piltdown Man, and sacred relics
produced by local craftsmen.

Yes mate , it may indeed be genuine , one off , perhaps a ship wreak

Once the size of the mining activity  is pointed out , they will be
embarrassed indeed if Im proven right , but to be fair I need
something to tie it all together ,the geology suggests an ancient
mining region , there are several vast waste dumps of millions of
tons , that were tested in the 1800s with shafts dug to
bedrock ,THROUGH what are IMHO waste dumps from the nearby apparent
"open cut quartz reef mines"
This is several steps too faryet
BACK to the Iron tool I think , and work from there a step at a time

.

        As I said earlier, mining is something that would leave all kinds of human
artifacts simply from what is normally lost and thrown away when broken.
Simply finding something that appears similar to a mining operation is not
conclusive. If people really did mine this area then there are trash middens
with all kinds of waste in them. Find one of those and your case is iron clad.
You will find animal bones with human teeth marks, pottery that was broken
before discarded, all kinds of human garbage.

Now you raise an interesting point, that I myself have looked for

Evidence of any kind would help and the site seems to have all the
signs of a VAST mine , but nil trash that I can find , bar those that
resemble Aboriginal origins

This is the first tool that I feel can be proven to be man made

That leaves the remote possibility that the site is very very
ancient , pre pottery , or pre the era when mine slaves used pottery
and the simple chisel tips on wooden handles and fire were the only
method used to extract the gold

If the slaves were fed local meats and lived in local huts and had no
bowls , and all gold was shipped to the mother country , with the
locals living a very primitive existence , possibly the normal life
for the masses in the outer provinces 3000 years ago was as basic
as that lived by the native aboriginals

The local Aboriginal peoples may well be the former miners , and their
remains are the same as the miners ways of life

Local Aboriginals lived in the area for milenia and hardly a trace of
them can be found in many areas except by water holes , no pottery
exists , but we accept they were here, and local foods are plentiful,
why import food , the diverse wastes found in the ancient world
archaeological sites could be missing even if ten thousand people
lived in the area mining for centuries

The mining waste dump I dig through do turn up the iron chisel
tips ,and in time there may be a town waste dump located in future
but perhaps none is essential , the aboriginal people did live
comfortably off the land and they never needed imported stuff

Who knows mate , give it time and we shall both see more clearly

Post by kangarooistan
If so perhaps the sample I have is worth looking at in that light
There are a number of things in the specimen that fit perfectly with
this possibility
Are there any online sites dealing with ancient placental burial
rituals in ancient cultures

        But the cost of an iron tool does not fit. A copper tool maybe.

seen nil evidence of any copper at the site ever , no pottery either ,
but evidence of massive mining effort a very long time ago can be
picked out by an observant eye , one day people will wonder WHY it was
not noticed before
mainly because it is so vast , millions of tons of hard rock mined
long before Europeans came

,

        The absence of trash is a serious problem. People cannot live with created
lots of it. And if millions of tons were moved by people that is a lot of
people for a long time. There has to be trash there and lots of it. There has
to be graffiti there. People leave their marks everywhere. There also has to
be a seaport that carried away whatever they were digging and bringing them
the luxuries from home. There you would also find signs of fishing.
        And they would bring livestock from home for them to raise and eat. That I

I accept this may be true of recent large mining activities

BUT if it was 3000 years ago , perhaps there was no real direct link
to say Egypt or China , but indirect contact , like on the silk road ,
the goods passed along from town to town both ways not in one voyage

Ancient Egypt refers to the land of PUNT , but it seems they had
little real idea where it was , assuming it was a land with gold and
elephants and spices that lay to the east , but the land of PUNT was
merely a shipping depot trading from many countries importing from
the central and far east , most Egyptians knew little of the outer
regions , it seems the Phoneticians served the Egyptian masters as
ocean going sailor traders

But who knows , the Chinese were also active as were the Persians
Indians then Arabs , none of whom would need single return trip to set
up a gold mine enterprise in what is now called Australia

There is a ledgend , about King solomons gold mines that remains a
mystery as to its location Solomons Islands are named after the
myth / they thought it matched the myths location far to the East , a
3 year return trip from memory from the Middle east

think is the greatest thing against the idea of mining. They would have
brought mammals and some would have escaped and gone wild. Yet there were none
in Australia. The same applies to wheat, barley and any other foods that could
be raised locally.
        I think the odds are very much against this being what you think it is. There
has to be a human context for this item that fits your hypothesis.

Im aware your point is valid Matt

I have searched for all the things you mention

Even plants and insects / white ants or weeds may be expected to be of
interest

I claim the DNA will in time be identified in the local Aboriginal
peoples AND their language SHOULD contain evidence

WHICH I claim can be seen

Also sea port activity SHOULD leave signs as you say , but it would be
put down as local native peoples , the transport of gold most
probably only went to a regional HQ not directly back to the owners
country
This beach nearby is claimed to be natural
Loading Image...
, sea levels have risen over the last 3000 years AND a large port is
not needed , merely somewhere to load GOLD ,local supplies may have
been plentiful to sustain the " salves " , aboriginal people did not
need " Supplies " slaves could harvest their own needs as the locals
did

Most long distance trade was done in stages by a series of carriers ,
ofter changing hands many times

This site would be at the far end of the earth 3000 years ago like a
trip to the moon , its not possible to be further from the then center
of civilization , are you familiar with south Australia in relation to
the then market for GOLD , it was a very long way 200 years ago and
even further 2000 years ago

Traditionally the frontiers were always more primitive the further
from the center of commerce

Luxury goods probably never were sent, even 50 years ago it was
untraveled territory , devoid of luxury that would be seen in towns

Post by kangarooistan
As the specimen  is petrified  , the recent history is of no
interest , and the inclusion of a valuable iron tool , in a remote
isolated mining site may indicate an upper class member of the outfit
perhaps , there are very few artifacts as seen in european digs, no
pottery ,not surprising if it was mined by slaves or poor people ,
gold would have been the real purpose of the remote site  at the far
ends of the earth

        But if you are talking concreted gravel that means such a burial was near the
banks of a river. It is not clear why any iron would have survived given any
reasonable time it was underwater.

River gravel uplifted eons before , is no where near rivers today
This river gravel / ancient river can be traced up hill and down , its
millions of years since it ran as a river , the material is classed as
a million plus years old but the sample I refer to was dug out of the
original cemented gravels and has re set and is visibly younger

        So far as I am aware gold and iron are NOT found together such that you could
call iron an added value of gold mining much as silver is an added value of
gold mining.

Iron in Quartz is good gold country in Australia ,mind you both are
small proportions , Iron ore mines are quite separate beasts
One of the signs you look for is quartz with iron , and an ancient
river to concentrate the gold  , all of which are present

Post by kangarooistan
Although petrified and contained in a layer of white sand , it is
possible to identify something that IS  buried under the iron tool in
white sand ,  that is then recemented into rivergravel conglomerate

        Your use of petrified has to be explained. I can make no sense of the term as
you use it. Petrified means organic material replaced by stone due to a slow
process involving water soluble stone.

EXACTLY right mate
Organic material that has been replaced by minerals

.

        And you are aware how extremely rare it is for soft tissue to fossilize?

go tell that to an Egyptian , or ice man or often in hot sandy deserts
it does happen , yes rarely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy#Natural_mummies
Indeed flies would consume flesh unless it was protected in some way

I am on thin ground re placenta , BUT if you bury a placenta in a box
of white sand and pour on a glass of mothers milk daily for a few
months you can make your own mummified placenta from my understanding
of meat science , I am very familiar with how to preserve meat with
simple acids and so were the ancient peoples

Do you like eating German fermented sausage mate , preservation of
meat is a widely known and long practiced form of mummification , that
was used before refrigeration came along
http://www.google.com.au/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=fermented+sausage&meta=&btnG=Google+Search



The iron tool is hard evidence , the material below it looks to be
fossilized vegetable or animal in origin , time will sort it out , we
need not guess, it can be positively identified in time as will the
iron tool and the surrounding rock will locate it age and origins

Once we have several experts agree , then we can see where that leads
us , and thats what excites me , many other observations can then be
reviewed , not that it will actually change a single thing in our
daily lives , perhaps it may build stronger links between countries
that now seem foreign and that would be nice , as well as possibly be
a tourist attraction to the general region ,although there is nothing
much to see so dont get too excited , they dont flock to the bogs or
mountains where they find mummies , and there are no artifacts to
gather , open cast quartz mining leaves nothing interesting to
see ,

there is something within the layer of white sand that has the
appearance of  a placenta  , it is petrified , STONE , it is possible
to see the walls and the contents as distinctly separate layers  of
the "placenta" where it has been broken away
, it was at one time something organic , the contents are quite
different to the surrounding sand ,  and he surrounding river gravel ,
all of which are now STONE , except the rusty iron tool
Several different materials with distinct borders , all now
mineralized entirely , but clearly either plant or animal originally ,
with an iron tool placed on top
POSSIBLY a burial ritual , but Im only guessing , as you say matt
WHY discard an iron tool , at one time a priceless item , but they did
bury people with swords at the time
The contents of the so called " placenta " are quite different to look
at , unlike anything else in the area and may be a clue once examined
its still too early , only 3 days ago we found it
I prefer dealing with non australians to avoid bias , 99% of
Aussies simply quote what they learnedat school
there was NOTHING here before 1778so it can not be man made
end of debate
French and Egyptians would be my preference , the Egyptians are
experts

        It is unclear what specialization you think anyone might have.

Egyptians are specialists in archaeology , anfd Im not, I have little
faith in Australians doing research on this , justin case of hidden
bias

I think over seas experts may more easily form an opinion free from
all bias

There are tests that could be done if an expert saw the need
This could take months and We / I need be patient till then

Id LOVE to have it checked without telling them WHERE it was found
It can be re located by testing the minerals , Im willing to pay for
the tests ,only I and my sons know its genuine and will stand up under
any scrutiny , Exactly what it is is really puzzling even to me , its
best we ask a few real experts who may have seen this stuff many times

        As to having seen the thing before the web and a decent university library
are as good as any sources before spending the money. But I would also be
looking at 18th c. European items before jumping to conclusions. Seriously. I
came across one article on a perfectly preserved set of whatevers used by some
noble woman a mere three centuries ago. It was associated with what we would
describe as her cosmetic and normal "beauty" table. No one has any idea what
over half the items might have been used for.

There is several claims made re contact with ancient Egypt over many
years , most lack "real meaty evidence " and could be fabricated

We need a water tight case to open it up to the next step , this
specimen MAY be the one , if we can PROVE one case for Egyptian or
similar presence , then a string of other observations can be views as
more weighty , there are many similar possible links , but one by one
they all have other possible causes

If they are ALl viewed as a big picture it becomes almost logical to
view Australian early history with distant links to the other
centers of civilization

Im not sure why we feel the need to exclude early contact with
ancient civilization , clearly they did not want to own Australia ,
but its probable they did want any easy GOLD from every where , they
were as greedy as modern men re GOLD , they would have gone to the
very ends of the earth in search of it

The area DOES have GOLD , but very hard won even today its only by
VAST volumes can they make it pay , manual extraction was likely
always marginal and slaves would work for very small money

I have assumed there MUST be a managers residence with a safe house to
secure the gold, but this may have been timber or be buried , or be
yet to identify , the tributer system can see thousands of people
happily mine away for peanuts that the buyers come monthly to buy at
bargain prices
TRIBUTER
Etymology: Tributer \Trib"u*ter\, noun. (Mining) One who works for
certain portion of the ore, or its value. [English]. (Websters
1913) ...
www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Tr/Tributer.html -

Africa still mines this way today , thousands scratch away and sell to
visiting buyers for a tiny return

I assume a war may have stopped the buyers or ships at some time and
ongoing contact was lost

It wont change anything but a few paragraphs in history books

It seems to me the white people until very recently only believed the
Greeks were the beginning of modern history , and they seem to have
not known about Australia so therefore the " dumber races " could not
have known either

THEN tell them where it was found
IF it was found in Egypt or China nobody would doubt its a possibility
BUT as it was found in Australia it MUST be a fraud
IT SAYS SO IN ALL THE BOOKS and the books over rule the evidence in
the minds of white people
NOBODY was here before 1788  but nomadic natives , and they are happy
to leave it at that
Granted mate , its best we await a few experts , we can only guess at
possibilities until it goes under the microscope of people with
experience and an open mind
it will take months to take

...
read more »

[clanker]

Post by Matt Giwer
Do yourself a favor and do not become too attached to the idea this
is something more than the evidence can support.

The character 'KangaRootsHisHand' is seriously deluded at all times.

Indeed, he believes in his version of an invisible sky-pixie.

Burst his latest balloon by all means.

[Matt Giwer]

Post by clanker

Post by Matt Giwer
Do yourself a favor and do not become too attached to the idea
this is something more than the evidence can support.

The character 'KangaRootsHisHand' is seriously deluded at all times.
Indeed, he believes in his version of an invisible sky-pixie.
Burst his latest balloon by all means.

So far I have read nothing of the crackpot variety post. What I do read is no
problem with it being nothing more than a curiosity which is the rational
position. The worst I see is some wishful thinking but not at the normal level
of Americans from Sweden looking for evidence of Viking settlements.

I am quite familiar with crackpots on usenet and so far I do not see any sign
of it here.

As I have said, I have no problem erring on the side of things which might
cause a complete revision of what we think we know. I do try to give them a
fair hearing. What we have learned about our past in the last 200 years has
been completely revised several times. I have no problem with one or three
more major revisions.

But I do insist that revisions do not get ahead of the evidence and that all
factors be addressed. The most difficult issue here is the apparent complete
isolation of Oz from the outside world until some Brit messed it up. But in
his last post to me he appears to have no problem with something off of a
shipwreck which is the antithesis of crackpot.

Your pardon if I continue the exchange on the off chance of contributing
something new to his thinking.