Discussion:
Finkelstein: SOLOMON/SHISHAK redeemed at Jezreel!
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Lars Wilson
2006-06-11 20:06:56 UTC
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Israel Finkelstein just published a new work with co-author N.A. Silbrman
called "David and Solomon - In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the
Roots of the Western Tradition", which has some rather interesting theories
but also some very good archaeology. So I'm researching Finkelstein's work
and re-reading his previous book, "The Bible Unearthed - Archaeology's New
vision of ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts."

I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth a bit early but I think Solomon's
greatness can be reclaimed if you get the chronology right. This is what I
found in Finkelstein's book about excavations at Megiddo and Jezeel:

First of all, on page 341 he says: "This means that the last city at Megiddo
featuring remnants of Canaanite material culture cannot have been destroyed
by King David around 1000 B.C.E. Both the ceramic and CARBON-14 evidence
suggests it was still in existence several decades later -- well into the
tenth century B.C.E."

What is critical about this statement is that it is "relative" to when you
date Solomon and David. The conventional dating is based erroneously on a
single eclipse event in the Assyrian eponym dated to 763BCE which actually
occurred in 709BCE, some 54 years later. But that makes all the difference
in the world archaeologically speaking since it dates the reign of Solomon
from 910-870BCE and the invasion and destruction by Shishak to 871BCE (year
5 of Rehoboam and year 39 of Solomon). Of course, "well into the tenth
century BCE" doesn't conflict with Solomon or David necessarily would would
have reigned and began conquering from 950 BCE at the earliest. So when you
correct the pagan chronology and the related Biblical timeline, then you get
good comparisons with radiocarbon dating and pottery dating. So Finkelstein
did have cause to dismiss David dated around 1000 BCE, but not if he didn't
arrive until 950BCE, which is more accurate. So #1: No pottery or
radiocarbon-14 dating problems for the true time for David and Solomon.

But now the fun part: MEGIDDO AND JEZEEL.

Finkelstein is talking about "Jezreel, located less than ten miles to the
east of Megiddo... They uncovered a large fortified enclosure... This
palatial acropolis was destroyed a short while after it was built." He then
compares that with Megiddo, allegedly destroyed by Shishak: "The surprise
was that the pottery found in the Jezreel enclosure is identical to the
pottry of the city of palaces at Megiddo. But the latter was supposed to
have been destroyed by Pharaoah Shishak almost a century earlier! How can
we bridge this gap? There are only two possibilities here: either we pull
the building of Jezreel back to the time of Solomon, or we push the Megiddo
palaces ahead to the time of the dynasty of Ahab."

Now Finkelstein must re-think this if Shishak gets moved down to 871BCE and
we presume that these palatial buildings at Jezreel which match the palatial
level at Megiddo are the same, which the pottery proves they were and thus
would be associated with Solomon! So yes! We must pull back the
destruction of Jezreel's palatial level that already matches that of Megiddo
("identical"!) to the time of Solomon and the destruction by Shishak!
Shishak left evidence at Megiddo that he destroyed the city. Jezreel was
nearby. Both PALACES are the same level and as per Finkelstein was a
relatively new building being destroyed shortly after it was built.

That fits Solomon's history perfectly. Because Shishak's invasion occurred
in the 39th year of Solomon, so whatever he built at Jezreel wouldn't have
been all that new. So certainly, follow the archaeological evidence here
that the palatial level at Megiddo must be the same PALATIAL level at
Jezreel and thus not Ahab's palace built after that at Jezreel, which must
be on the next level up.

But here is how Solomon gets redeemed as a great builder. You've got a
PALACE at Megiddo built by Solomon and a huge palace at Jezreel from the
same level also built by Solomon. These are two PALACES in cities less
than ten miles apart far from Jerusalem!

So Solomon must have been a great king and builder since just looking at
Megiddo and Jezeel and their "palatial" levels is quite impressive and
fortunately can be linked to destruction by Shishak in 871 BCE.

So the problem for Finkelstein is that he loses much steam and volume in his
argument when the timeline gets corrected. He can't push Solomon and David
into an earlier time that he can prove they didn't belong. He must keep
them where they actually were: 950-870BCE, and must also down-date Shishak
to 871BCE. Shishak's inscription represents the state of Israel and that
representation is a well-developed and densely populated area of great
cities with wonderful palatial buildings like Megiddo and nearby Jezreel.

So to summarize Finkelstein archaeologically, his only true contradiction
with the Biblical record is the timeline. That is, what Solomon claimed to
have built did show up arcaheologically *eventually* -- it's not as if they
didn't find a single palace. In fact, they found two wonderful ones at
Megiddo and Jezreel! They are just contradicatory in relation to the
erroneous early dating of Solomon and David because of revisions during the
Persian Period that got transferred to the Assyrian Period.

So what have we learned new?

That Solomon built a fabulous palace at Jezreel that apparently got
destroyed by Shishak along with the other fabulous palace at Megiddo, and
well past the early Philistine pottery era that ends mid 10th century, right
when it should!

What is also bad news for Finkelstein since he took a few bad turns, is that
from the time of Ahab onward you have lots of pagan confirmation of what was
going on in Israel from the records of Shalmaneser III, Hazeal (Tel-Dan
Stela) and the king of Moab (Moabite stone). There is essentially little
contradiction any any of the records from the surrounding records from the
time of Ahab all the way through to the end of the rule of Nebuchadnezzar.
After Nebuchadnezzar there is lots of revision but that is easily corrected
now with astrochronology and archaeological evidence at Persepolis.

What archaeologists are missing, from a historical point of view, in my
opinion is that you can't fractionalize the timeline. When you fix the
chronology of Persepolis, then you correct the chronology of Solomon. When
you get Solomon's dating right, then you get Shishak's dating right and in
turn, you get Akhenaton's dating right. The 4th year of Solomon is 480
years after the death of Amenhotep III.

But at least I want to note how much I admire Israel Finkelstein's
objectivity and not being influenced by tradition for his findings. He was
disadvantaged by the wrong overall timeline but thanks to him we have the
archaeological dating data and the radiocarbon-14 data to harmonize with the
corrected timeline, which works out perfectly now, of course!

L.W.
j***@gmail.com
2006-06-12 00:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars Wilson
I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth a bit early but
I think Solomon's greatness can be reclaimed if you get
the chronology right.
Clearly, as even you identify your interests & goals as
biblical, you really need to stop posting this bullshit here.
Lars Wilson
2006-06-12 12:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Lars Wilson
I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth a bit early but
I think Solomon's greatness can be reclaimed if you get
the chronology right.
Clearly, as even you identify your interests & goals as
biblical, you really need to stop posting this bullshit here.
Hi JTEM: This does relate to SHISHAK who is an EGYPTIAN
king so it's pertinent. Sorry if the "Jews" get in the way of the
non-Biblical
discussion here, but you're WAY out of line.

The Egyptians are linked with the Jews so it's unavoidable. Even JESUS
visited Egypt once. As long as I'm dealing with historical and
archaeological
issues you shouldn't hassle me. You call what I post "bullshit" but did it
ever
occur to you that maybe you're not that smart and what I'm posting is a bit
beyond
you?

You're entitled to your own opinion, of course, but...you're not doing so
well so far...

L.W.
j***@gmail.com
2006-06-13 02:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars Wilson
Hi JTEM: This does relate to SHISHAK who is
an EGYPTIAN king so it's pertinent. Sorry if
the "Jews" get in the way of the non-Biblical
discussion here, but you're WAY out of line.
Your area of interest, the topic you discuss and
the very goal you named are biblical.

Mention of anyone or anything Egyptian, no matter
how insignificant, does not make it relevant to
this group -- nor any group apart from fundy
religious groups.
Lars Wilson
2006-06-13 11:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Lars Wilson
Hi JTEM: This does relate to SHISHAK who is
an EGYPTIAN king so it's pertinent. Sorry if
the "Jews" get in the way of the non-Biblical
discussion here, but you're WAY out of line.
Your area of interest, the topic you discuss and
the very goal you named are biblical.
Mention of anyone or anything Egyptian, no matter
how insignificant, does not make it relevant to
this group -- nor any group apart from fundy
religious groups.
This group is about ancient Egyptian history and their culture and
custom and chronology. The Jews are part of that. The Jews were
in that part of the world and they have lots of "history" in their books.

Plus there is Josephus who uses the Bible as a basis for history, not always
representing it accurately, but nevertheless that is another to compare.
Then
you have Manetho later on mentioning events associated with the Jews in
Egypt.

The Bible's chronology, when understood correctly can be a great tool in
helping to date Egyptian events and to understand their history and culture.

In the meantime, the Egyptians happen to mention the Jews all the time from
Merenapth, to Shishak.

The Bible is a historical book referencing Egypt sometimes. I don't have to
preach Jesus in connection with Egyptian history.

You are far too insecure about the Bible and need to back off. The Bible's
historical references as it relates to Egypt are as central to Egypt as any
other
references so the posts belong here. Even if you were a Budhist or an
Atheist
the Bible is pertinent historically.

L.W.
j***@gmail.com
2006-06-14 08:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars Wilson
This group is about ancient Egyptian history
And you identified your interest/goal as biblical.

Now put two & two together and come up with
four for a change...
Lars Wilson
2006-06-14 12:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Lars Wilson
This group is about ancient Egyptian history
And you identified your interest/goal as biblical.
Now put two & two together and come up with
four for a change...
HELLO?

SHISHAK is an Egyptian pharoah! EGYPT-IAN!

He talked about his invasion of Israelite cities!

Since he invaded Israel in the 39th year of Solomon, their
chronology is linked together.

See? TWO + TWO = EGYPTIAN!
\
JTEM?

Get a life!
Get a job! or
Get lost!

I'm totally on-point and you're not. Sorry.

L.W.
j***@gmail.com
2006-06-15 10:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars Wilson
I'm totally on-point and you're not.
Yes. And I suggest you either remove your head
from there or soften the point by wearing a hat.
Lars Wilson
2006-06-25 18:35:39 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Lars Wilson
I'm totally on-point and you're not.
Yes. And I suggest you either remove your head
from there or soften the point by wearing a hat.
What are you, JTEM, the Freemason watchdog sentinel here? I'm just saying
I agree with Finkelstein that if you find "identical" pottery at two places
less than 10 miles apart that that probably indicates that level belongs to
the same period! DOHHHHHH!

But some want the palacial buildings at Jezreel to belong to Ahab who came
later but they can't now. The palacial level at Jezreel and the ashlar
blocks level at Megiddo have to be from the same period and that has to be
linked with Shishak! Thus Shishak attacked during the Solomonic Period.

The most reliable radiocarbon dating available is from Rehov now where grain
stores were dated at the destructive level associated with Shishak which
agrees with this dating of the invasion in 871BCE. Based upon the invasion
in year 39 of Solomon we get "relative" dating back to the Exodus during the
time of Amenhotep III and Akhenaton. Akhenaton's conversion to
monothesism is the "actions speak louder than words" confirmation that the
ten plagues really happened. That is, he was impressed enough to know the
Egyptian gods were phonies and he was all to ready to convert to
Judeo-monotheism to an invisible god.

These "improvements"/"refinements" in Egyptian chronology are a move
forward, you should be happy JTEM!

L.W.
j***@gmail.com
2006-06-26 03:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars Wilson
These "improvements"/"refinements" in Egyptian chronology
are a move forward, you should be happy JTEM!
You don't even have a theory to put forward.

If you want to be taken seriously you've got to do the work.

You haven't done the work. You have no theory to discuss.
Lars Wilson
2006-06-28 18:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Lars Wilson
These "improvements"/"refinements" in Egyptian chronology
are a move forward, you should be happy JTEM!
You don't even have a theory to put forward.
If you want to be taken seriously you've got to do the work.
You haven't done the work. You have no theory to discuss.
Hi JTEM.

Advancement has been made. Right now the reign of Akhenaton is dated by two
archaeological groups as either beginning in in 1378BCE or 1351BCE. The
KTU 1.78 astrotext accords dating his 12th year to 1375BCE and thus perhaps
confirming his rule began in 1386BCE. That's progress. This is
information APPLIED.

Akhenaton's radical and immediate focus on monotheism connects him with the
Exodus (i.e. the Jews were monotheists). A special skin treatment never
used before was used with the mummy of Amenhotep III. They put some kind of
resen under his skin for some reason. Why? Hmmmmmm. Well, let's see, um,
maybe he was a bit waterlogged after having drowned in the Red Sea?

At any rate, with the "absolute" dating applied, you can date Shishak's
invasion effectively to the corrected timing. Solomon's 4th year was 480
years after the Exodus and thus falls in 906BCE. Shishak's invasion in the
5th of Rehoboam was the 39th year of Solomon and thus in 871BCE.

The absolute best reference of radiocarbon dating is found at Rehov where
grain stores were dated and "which Mazar believes corresponds to the
Sheshenque invasion, gave dates ranging from about 916 to 832 BCE". If you
add 916 and 832 you get 1748. Divide by 2 to get the average which is
874BCE. So the best radiocarbon dating for the invasion c. 874 is right on
the button for the actual year of the invasion in 871BCE, thanks to
astronomy.

This is NEW because right now the conventional dating for Shishak is some 54
years earlier in 925BCE, a date they find "scientifically" challenged since
the radiocarbon-14 dating is giving different dates.

So a lot of "confirmation" and coordination boils down not to the events
themselves (i.e. we know Shishak invated Israel) but the TIMELINE. In this
case the astro-corrected timeline for Akhenaton matches with the radiocarbon
dating timeline for Shishak! So all is well, IF you adjust the timeline
based upon all the modern information we have now.

So contrary to your reference, this IS new, unless I missed something. Last
time I checked archaeologists and historians were still dating the Shishak
invasion in 924-925BCE and claiming there is a contradiction. Of course,
which it is because they are using an incompetent timeline.

L.W.

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