Discussion:
The language of the ancient egyptians?
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Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
2006-06-19 02:26:44 UTC
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Hi,

Somewhere, a long time ago (in my life span, that is) I came across a
mention of a name; of someone who aledgedly had put together the
language of the ancient egyptians by combining hierglyphic texts and
some dialect found (presumably) in egypt.

Since I think that might be useful for historical fiction, even though
it's of questionable value to historians, I'd like to know if any of
you are familiar with that work or know where to look for it.


Johann
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Toivo Pedaste
2006-06-19 05:30:41 UTC
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Well, Champollion was able to translate Hieroglyphs using Coptic which is
the liturgical language of the Coptic Christians in Egypt and descended
from ancient Egyptian.
Post by Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
Hi,
Somewhere, a long time ago (in my life span, that is) I came across a
mention of a name; of someone who aledgedly had put together the
language of the ancient egyptians by combining hierglyphic texts and
some dialect found (presumably) in egypt.
Since I think that might be useful for historical fiction, even though
it's of questionable value to historians, I'd like to know if any of
you are familiar with that work or know where to look for it.
Johann
--
Toivo Pedaste Email: ***@uwa.edu.au
Information Technology Services, Phone: +61 8 6488 2605
University of Western Australia Fax: +61 8 6488 1109
"The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things"...
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
2006-06-20 01:10:49 UTC
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Post by Toivo Pedaste
Well, Champollion was able to translate Hieroglyphs using Coptic
which is the liturgical language of the Coptic Christians in Egypt
and descended from ancient Egyptian.
Thank you, that *might* be what I was (mis)remembering. I thought the
reference was the other way around though.


Johann
--
johann myrkraverk com (you know the drill with the @ and .)
I classify Outlook mail as spam, use something else.
M***@aol.com
2006-06-19 13:22:25 UTC
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Post by Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
Hi,
Somewhere, a long time ago (in my life span, that is) I came across a
mention of a name; of someone who aledgedly had put together the
language of the ancient egyptians by combining hierglyphic texts and
some dialect found (presumably) in egypt.
Since I think that might be useful for historical fiction, even though
it's of questionable value to historians, I'd like to know if any of
you are familiar with that work or know where to look for it.
Johann, if you have to ask this question, perhaps you are not the
best person to write historical fiction set in ancient Egypt. The ones
most likely to want to read that are the same people who are going
to spot errors that might undermine the value of your writing. You
have to be well-versed in your subject or such mistakes are bound
to crop up without you even realizing it. Even in a work of fiction,
you have got to know what is "possible", even if it never actually
happened. One can only take literary license so far. My guess is
you have a lot of research ahead of you before you should even
consider taking on such a project. And probably the Egyptian language
should be left out of it entirely because difficulties and pitfalls
there are very great.
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
2006-06-20 01:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@aol.com
Post by Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
Hi,
Somewhere, a long time ago (in my life span, that is) I came across a
mention of a name; of someone who aledgedly had put together the
language of the ancient egyptians by combining hierglyphic texts and
some dialect found (presumably) in egypt.
Since I think that might be useful for historical fiction, even though
it's of questionable value to historians, I'd like to know if any of
you are familiar with that work or know where to look for it.
Johann, if you have to ask this question, perhaps you are not the
best person to write historical fiction set in ancient Egypt. The
ones most likely to want to read that are the same people who are
going to spot errors that might undermine the value of your writing.
You have to be well-versed in your subject or such mistakes are
bound to crop up without you even realizing it. Even in a work of
fiction, you have got to know what is "possible", even if it never
actually happened. One can only take literary license so far. My
guess is you have a lot of research ahead of you before you should
even consider taking on such a project. And probably the Egyptian
language should be left out of it entirely because difficulties and
pitfalls there are very great.
Of course I'm not the right person to write about anything in ancient
egypt; but I'm working on that ;)

However, leaving the language out entirely is the easy way out and may
not be the best thing to do when creating an atmosphere. For exaple,
when Gandalf reads from the ring in Lord of the Rings:

The change in the wizard's voice was astounding. Suddenly it be-
came menacing, powerful, harsh as stone. A shadow seemed to pass
over the high sun, and the porch for a moment grew dark. All
trembled, and the Elves stopped their ears.

Such passages are hard to write without a clue as to how the language
might have sounded - even if I leave the actual language out of the
text.

There is also the question of names. One of my picture books mentions
a slave girl named Gemini Herimentet which means "I found you in the
West" and if I am going to create such names[1] I'm going to need to
know something of the language, or how it could have been.

[1] I don't know if I need to create any such names yet, I have only a
very broad plot outline so far.

I am working (or will be) on avoiding the painfully impossible. I do
come across it every time (or way too often) when someone writes about
computers (or even worse, the Internet) so I do know what you're
talking about.


Johann
--
johann myrkraverk com (you know the drill with the @ and .)
I classify Outlook mail as spam, use something else.
Robbie Langton
2006-06-26 01:11:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:59:06 +0000, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
Such passages are hard to write without a clue as to how the language
might have sounded - even if I leave the actual language out of the
text.
Except in very general terms, the one thing we don't know about
Ancient Egyptian was how it sounded. The writing system left out all
the vowels, and we're not even sure how some of the consonants sounded
at any specific moment in time. The finer nuances such as rhythm and
intonation are lost for ever.

Most of the "familiar" Egyptian names are academic conveniences,
created by inserting the vowel "e" in places where we think there was
probably a vowel and adding "a" and "i" and "u" in other places
according to conventions, which may or may not represent the vowels
that were originally there. "Nefertiti", for example, may not have
been recognised as her name by the lady we conventionally call by
that.

I'm afraid I must echo Marianne in suggesting you find a different
setting for your writing. Why not follow Tolkein, whom you seem to
admire, in creating an entirely fantasy setting?

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